176 - The Interview: Dr. Dave Douglass (Former President of Hyles Anderson College)

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Hey, everybody, thanks for tuning in to the recovering fundamentalist podcast, where your host. That's Brian. That's Nathan. I'm JC, and, guys, it's good to see you. Episode number 176. Thanks for being here on the recovering fundamentalist podcast. Fellas, how you been? [00:00:24] Speaker B: Been doing good. JC, I just wanted to say thanks to you publicly for making such a big sacrifice this past week. For those of you who don't know, JC Groves is the pastor of Hope Church, Catoosa, and I pastor Hope church, Asheville. I was out of town last weekend, preaching at a conference in south Georgia, and asked JC to come fill in. So he preached on Sunday morning, two services, nine and eleven, then got in a vehicle, drove 4 hours. [00:00:56] Speaker A: Miles. [00:00:57] Speaker B: Yeah, a lot of miles. And showed up just in time for church, preached here, got in his car, drove back home the next morning, woke up after just a couple hours of sleep, drove to Atlanta, and met with Matt Dudley and a couple other guys, and then drove back home. So thank you so much. The church loved having you, and he did all of that with three teeth that had to be extracted two days later. So what was the wrong. What was the problem with your teeth? You were. [00:01:31] Speaker A: I swear, my mom did meth when she was pregnant with me. I have got horrible teeth. I always have. You can leave that in. I don't care. Kathy Groves. You heard it there. But no, I had abscessed teeth, three abscessed teeth. And I've been needing to fix them for a couple months. My son had to get braces. My daughter had to have mouth surgery. So it just kept getting put off. And then they were like, hey, bud, uh, you got to pull those. And so the next day, after I got back from Atlanta, we had three extractions. So, uh, I'm feeling really good. I'm, uh. I've got some good pain medicine in me right now, so there's no telling. [00:02:10] Speaker B: No telling mouth. [00:02:12] Speaker C: This is scary. [00:02:15] Speaker A: It's going to be, Lord, please help us. But you also were in Perry, Georgia, speaking at a theology conference, right? [00:02:23] Speaker B: Yes. [00:02:23] Speaker A: Pass. Sunday. You went to another hope church, didn't you? [00:02:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I got to be in Hope church, Martinsville. Clint was on an Emmaus walk, which. Didn't you do that, JC years ago? [00:02:34] Speaker A: Decalorous brother. Men's walk, number 42. [00:02:37] Speaker B: There you go. Okay, so I got to go fill in, and he let me speak. I thought it was just a joke, but he let me speak on Ephesians, chapter two, verse one through ten, one of the greatest passages in the Bible. [00:02:51] Speaker A: I love how you started it. Your pastor has got something really wrong with him. [00:02:55] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like, I don't understand this guy. I would never, ever let someone preach that passage. If I'm preaching through Ephesians, I'd be like, bro, just preach a one off. Whatever you want, whatever the Lord lays on your heart, you preach it. But you're not preaching this topic. [00:03:10] Speaker A: That's funny. [00:03:11] Speaker B: Yeah. So, Carrie and I actually traveled together. She doesn't always go to hear me preach. I don't think she's that impressed. She hears me all the time, so she doesn't always travel with me. But this weekend was our 29th anniversary. Not of our wedding. We just celebrated 28 last month. But this is our 29th anniversary of our first date, which was a blind date. So the day we met, uh, so we. We celebrated 29 years of knowing each other. So she goes on this trip with me. Even though she was a little bit sick, she was trying to recover from whatever. It's just in case anyone's wondering, it's not COVID. She did not have COVID. She's never had COVID. Even though she can't taste or smell anything. Um, it's. It's not COVID. So, uh, she was recovering from that, getting better, and I think she's finally much better today. But this weekend, it was still a little bit, you know, still coughing a little bit and stuff. And, uh, I lived in a house fully. [00:04:11] Speaker A: She lives in the house with a guy that's had COVID, like, 23 times. [00:04:14] Speaker B: I know, but I successfully avoided eating after her. Like, I had to stop myself multiple times or drinking out of her cup, driving down the road. Like, I was kind of keeping my distance. Didn't kiss her on the mouth. Was just being, you know, really careful. And then we got up, getting ready for church Sunday morning, and she's doing her makeup and blow drying her hair and curling all this stuff. And so I kind of wedge my way in in the hotel, and I'm brushing my teeth. She waits till I get finished brushing my teeth, and she goes, you know, you just use my toothbrush, right? [00:04:46] Speaker C: Oh. [00:04:47] Speaker B: And I was like, no, I didn't. And I looked at it. Hers is a light green color, and mine is a light blue color. We just changed because she was sick, so she just got new toothbrushes. And I was like, oh, we go. I reach in my bag, and mine is sitting right there. So she's just, like, laughing, giggling at me that I've been so careful the whole weekend. Then I use her toothbrush. So I I don't know. Some people think that's disgusting, but. [00:05:10] Speaker A: Disgusting? Disgusting. [00:05:12] Speaker B: I mean, uh, toothpaste is chemicals, right? It should. It's a cleaner, so. [00:05:16] Speaker A: Yeah, but yesterday on the toothbrush. Is it. [00:05:20] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:05:21] Speaker C: Love has limits. [00:05:22] Speaker B: It. Yeah. I mean, you kiss your wife in the mouth, so. I mean, what's the difference of using her toothbrush? [00:05:28] Speaker C: A big difference. [00:05:29] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. It's. It's kind of gross, I admit, but. [00:05:32] Speaker A: Well, bro, you've been up to. Other than getting old, you know, sir, I hear you. [00:05:37] Speaker C: You talking about going to Asheville and then Atlanta, and I hear Nathan talking about going to Martinsville. And to be honest, I'm not jealous of either one of you guys. I flew last week to Florida to do the wedding of a dear friend. And he and the beautiful young lady that he is that he married, they decided they both love fishing. They both love fishing. So they chartered a big 60 foot fishing boat. [00:06:07] Speaker A: Who. [00:06:08] Speaker C: We went out on the ocean. I did the ceremony on the back of the boat, and as soon as the wedding ceremony was over and he kissed the bride, everybody went and put on their fishing gear and we fished for the rest of the day out deep sea fishing. And guys, I caught a horse. And at the end of the day, we filleted him. He went straight from the water to the grill. It was fresh fish, just frozen fish or preserved fish. [00:06:45] Speaker D: Or. [00:06:45] Speaker C: For those of you who only think fish comes in a can called tuna, fresh fish is next level. [00:06:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:51] Speaker C: And then not only that, but since our last recording. You know, JC, you've always picked at me about being old. I've had yet another birthday. I am now 54 years old. Look like I've been drug face down behind a New York City bus. I finally reached the point in life when my knees buckle and my belt won't. And then the other day, I had a problem because. Cause my pacemaker kept making the garage door fly up and down. But outside of that, getting older has not been. Been too bad so far. But I have had a birthday, so anybody who wants to send birthday gifts to me, I would. I love gift cards to restaurants. And so you can. You can just let the gift cards roll in. [00:07:38] Speaker A: What a plug. [00:07:39] Speaker C: You know, I'm not getting one. I'm not. [00:07:43] Speaker B: I just think it's amazing that you turned 54 when we. We thought you were in your sixties, Brian. [00:07:50] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, I'm not where we test. [00:07:54] Speaker B: Brian's ability to not cuss out loud. [00:07:56] Speaker C: Right? I'm not. I'm not going to respond to that. [00:08:00] Speaker A: I love it. Well, we're excited about today's episode. It's been one that we have waited a long time to have, and we're going to have a great conversation today. We have the pastor of Grace Baptist Church from Indiana on with us. He's also the former president of Hiles Anderson College. Pastor Dave Douglas is with us today, and you want to be sure to stay tuned for this conversation. [00:08:23] Speaker B: Yeah, guys, with everything that's going on in the world right now, like, this world is crazy. It's always crazy. It's always been crazy. But right now, I don't remember a time in my life where the news has been more insane than what's going on right now. People are setting themselves on fire on live television. Students are protesting. There's anti semitism at a level that we saw during world War two at Columbia University. Former president of the United States is on trial. A current president of the United States got in front of a microphone. That's. That's terrible. We have war in Israel. We have Gaza, Hamas, Iran. I mean, so many things going on right now. There's on the news, people are furries. Moral revolution, LGBTQ. All this crazy stuff is going on. And I'm just worried that one more matchstick thrown on this fire us interviewing the former president of Howells Anderson University on the recovering fundamentalist podcast may just blow the world up. I don't know. We need prayer. [00:09:41] Speaker A: Well, let's find out. Let's get the show started. Y'all ready? [00:09:44] Speaker C: I'm ready. [00:09:45] Speaker B: I'm ready. [00:09:46] Speaker A: Buckle up and hold on. Let's go. [00:10:06] Speaker C: The recovering fundamentalist podcast starts in three. [00:10:09] Speaker B: You know what makes women stupid is. [00:10:10] Speaker D: Calling Jesus was not a bartender. High back. [00:10:14] Speaker A: Two. [00:10:15] Speaker B: You have lost your mind. [00:10:18] Speaker D: Long tongue heifers have given me a lot more trouble than heifers wearing britches, and you know that. Say amen right there. One. Let me tell you something, bozo. They'll be selling frosties in hell for this. [00:10:29] Speaker B: Boy puts on a pair of pink underwear. [00:10:31] Speaker D: Amen. I sucked my thumb till I was 14 years of age. [00:10:35] Speaker B: High band. [00:10:39] Speaker A: Once again, we do want to thank you for being here on the Recovering fundamentalist podcast. For those of you that skip over the banter, welcome to the Recovering fundamentalist podcast. We are your host, Brian Nathan. I'm JC, joined today by Dave Douglas, the former president of Hiles Anderson College, current pastor of Grace Baptist in Indiana. And we're glad that you're here with us today. A couple things to make you aware of. We've got the. For the sake of the gospel conference coming up the first weekend in November right here at Hope Church Catoosa in Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia. No registration needed, no signing up. It's free of charge. Just come and be with us. That's going to be happening the first week of November right here at Hope Church Catoosa. We'd love for you to be here for the third annual for the sake of the gospel conference. And then we are going to Israel again. This is a pastor's trip. We're going to be heading to Israel. Hopefully you in 2025. You can go to recovering fundamentalist.org, click on the Israel tab and get signed up today. The cheapest you will ever go to Israel unless you take a group back the next year and then you get to go for free. But we'd love for you to go with us to Israel and see the holy land. We can't say enough about this trip. Go and be with us. [00:11:50] Speaker B: JC, I just realized today I decided to check it. It still says 2024 and I think it has a link from the old. So we will update that this week on the website. So you can go there and click that. [00:12:03] Speaker A: It's going to be a great trip in 2024 or 25 whenever we go. It's going to be awesome. Well, Pastor Dave Douglas, we're glad to have you on the podcast. This has been a long time coming, a lot of prayer, a lot of conversations, and now is the time and we're glad that you're here with us. Will you introduce yourself, let us know a little bit about who is Dave Douglas and then we'll get the conversation started. [00:12:26] Speaker D: Sure. Thanks, JC. Good to be with you guys and hope. This is a great broadcast. I was born and raised in the Pacific Northwest. Actually, it's called the Columbia river gorge. It's where the Cascade mountains intersect with the Columbia river. It's about a 40 miles stretch. Back when I was growing up, it was just as I described, but later they labeled it as a national scenic area. And our parents divorced when I was three years of age. And so we, for the next six years, my brothers and I, we kind of raised ourselves. We were very independent. Mom was a waitress, she was a bartender. We didn't go to church, although different churches would come out and get us. There was a lutheran church, there was a nazarene church, a baptist church one time, so. But divorce kind of took a toll on a lot of us. And so probably by about the time I was in fifth grade, was introduced to drugs and alcohol by a cousin. And so that habit got worse and worse. Back up just a little bit. My mom remarried at nine years of age. He was a good man when he was sober, and we had a lot of good times, but he could become very violent. And unfortunately, my brothers and I were witnesses to him beating my mom bloody on several occasions. And you know what? I don't regret any of that, because a lot of it is why I am or who I am today. And so. But again, high school, I was involved in sports. Baseball and football were my sports, and enjoyed that. Didn't really enjoy school, but senior year, everybody was saying, hey, I'm going to this college and I'm going to that college. And it just didn't appeal to me. So me and a buddy went down to a recruiter's office, an army recruiter's office in Portland, Oregon, talked to him, spent the night down there, and before I knew it, I was raising my right hand and taking an oath to support the constitution and so on and so forth. So did four years in the army, which I enjoyed. I almost made it a career, but I had a colleague of God on my life. But it got worse before it got better. And again, just a lot of drugs and alcohol. I got stationed in Germany, and it was just almost a daily basis. Drugs were a little bit more extreme. Cocaine, LSD, did it all. Not bragging about that, but it is my testimony, and it all served a purpose because my last couple months there, I was just really in a burned out condition. What is life? Why is life? Why do I exist? And much more. So I got orders to go to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, which I resisted. I didn't want to go there. I wanted a west coast duty station, either Fort Ord, California, or Fort Lewis, Washington. But the battalion commander came back and said, you're going to North Carolina. So I did went on leave for two weeks, and my entire family was very concerned about me. I was literally lifeless. Just the drugs and alcohol had taken its toll and just was a very difficult time. But I did determine once I got to Fort Bragg, I was going to get my act together. And so I stopped going to the bars for a period of time. I would go to the gym and work out, but it was hard to find good people, and I really didn't know what good people were. I didn't know any christians. And so. But then it took a bigger turn for the worse, and I don't remember the event, but I was right back into that culture that I was in Germany, but it was even worse. And I could remember coming home on either a Friday or Saturday night, just very intoxicated, laid down on the bed, and I began to cry. And I quickly put my pillow over my face so my roommates wouldn't hear me. Because you're a soldier. Soldiers just don't cry. And I wanted to be dead at that time because I had zero hope going on in my life. And so, again, wake up the next morning and do what we all did as a soldier. We just go about our business, hide our emotions. We don't reveal weaknesses. But I was dying on the inside. And then one of the most strangest but God appointed events took place. My roommate, who was every bit as bad as I was, probably a little bit. He's the type of guy that when we went out on the night, we had to put a watch on him because he would get in fights. We just. We couldn't afford to all be in fights all the time, so. But anyhow, woke up on a Sunday morning and he wasn't there. And I asked my roommate, hey, do you know where Gary was at? And he said, no. And so we waited. About 01:00 he shows up. I said, hey, gary, where were you? Where were you? He goes, I went to church. And we all started laughing. I said, no, serious, gary, where'd you go? He goes, I went to church, and I got saved. And I'm, like, looking at him like a Martian. It's like, what are you talking about? And he said, well, I trusted Jesus as my savior. And I'm like, yeah, okay, whatever. And then we went back to our routine, what we did on the weekends, more drugs, more alcohol, rock music, and, you know, the whole culture of it. He kept on giving me these gospel tracts, but one of them was called. It was the chick tracks that many of you are familiar with. It was called this was your life. He gave it to me. I opened my drawer, stuck it in my drawer, and I didn't read it for a few days, but when I read it, I thought, oh, my. I said, this is me now. The unit. I was in the brigade that I was in support of the 82nd Airborne division. So literally, where they went, we would go as support. And some of our training was to go down to the green ramp and take a flight and a c 130 as training. So it really started to hit home. If this track is true, if I die, I will spend eternity in hell. So this time, I initiated Gary. Tell me about more about this church. He said, why don't you just come? So I promised him I would come that Sunday morning. But again, I hate to say that, but it is my testimony. I was hungover. Didn't get in till about 02:00 in the morning. I said, I'm sorry, Gary, but I'll go with you if you, if you go tonight. And he did. And I was doing drugs pretty much the whole day, but I went to church with him, and for the very first time, Berean Baptist Church Fayetteville, North Carolina I heard a clear presentation of the gospel, and I had enough of a mind to understand what was going on. And he urged me to go forward, to get saved. But just me standing up and walking in front of people was just a no deal. And so I came back Wednesday. Long story short, walked the aisle. Retired command sergeant major showed me the gospel. All I remember was John 316. That's all I needed to know. And go ahead and pray and accept Christ as your savior. He said, bow your head and pray. I bowed my head, and there was just total silence. And so he said, go ahead and pray. And I looked up at him and I said, I don't know how to pray. And so he said, I'll give you the words, but you have to mean it with your heart. And I did accept the Christ as my savior. Now from there, I knew God was working in my heart. Didn't know it at that time, but I looked backwards because I went back to the barracks, got my drug stash, flushed it down the toilet, threw away my cigarettes. Nobody told me to do this. And then the big thing that was my treasure was my rock music. The AC DC, led Zeppelin, Van Halen, all that stuff. Two great big cardboard boxes. And I threw it in the dumpster. I was done. So again, that church had a big impact upon me, and my life was rapidly changing. And then went to the pastor, I said, I'm getting out of the army pretty soon. Where do you think I should go? And he gave me a couple colleges. He said, but I probably would direct you to Hiles Anderson College. Never heard of before. Never heard of Jack Hiles. But that's where I went. Went to college. And socially, I was at that time very socially awkward. You know, when you grow up in a town of 250 and there's three bars and, you know, just. It was a culture of fighting and I left out. But two times my parents had to bail me out of jail. And then here I am at this college surrounded by christians. I'm like, wow, I won out. And I really did. It was just too much for stayed. The next year, after that met my beautiful wife, Tina, and we got married in 1984. We've had. We have three children, Michael, Megan, Eric, all of them grown, serving the Lord in different churches, seven grandchildren. And I just feel like God's grace has just blessed me for unknown reasons. Obviously, none of us deserve it. I certainly don't deserve the blessings, but. Well, my first ministry position was the principal of the bus kids school for First Baptist, and that was a powerful ministry, and God blessed it also. They were ready to close the doors. It had 97 students, and somebody, one of the assistant pastors said, why don't you hire Dave Douglas? I think he could do a good job there. And by the way, everything that I say has nothing to do about me. But there's been this spirit of grace upon me, of favor upon me, and that's from God, and I know that. So I stayed there 23 years. When I left, we had 603 students. We had twelve acres of property, a building. Just amazing things happened. Served in a couple different ministry positions, left for a while, pastored in Tennessee, up there in the mountain culture. Seven months, and that just was not a good mix at all. So I gracefully bowed out, came back, and served another position. And then finally, Pastor Wilkerson asked me to be the president of Hiles Anderson College. I resisted. I was hesitant for the whole reason. I really didn't want a national platform, and. But I knew God wanted me. So three and a half years, resigned there, started a counseling ministry, which is my passion. One on one, one on two, and sometimes entire families coming into my office and helped help literally thousands of people in the counseling ministry. And then about four months after that, God laid up on my heart to start a church. And so in June of 2021, we met in a Hampton Inn for our very first meeting, 24 people. Actually, the first week was. First couple of weeks was in a home of one of our members, and then the Hampton Inn. And then in November of 2022, this church that we're currently in right now went on the market for 300,000, which was a steal. We made a cash offer. We had $30,000 in the bank. We made a cash offer for $300,000, thinking it's just not going to happen. But we had a little bit of faith. My wife's a real estate agent also, so she did a lot of maneuvering for us. And so it came back, accepted offer contingent upon proof of funds. We didn't have any proof of funds. And so I said, tina, what do we do? And she says, dave, we just wait two days later, without explanation, the accepted offer came. We didn't have to prove the funds or anything, so now we had a month and a half to raise $250,000. Church raised a bid, but a good christian gentleman said, dave, I'll loan you the money, you pay me back. And that's what we've been doing here. So that's about up to date here. We're doing. God is just really doing some miracles here, giving us good givers. We've totally remodeled the building, giving us good people here, and just amazing what God has done. [00:24:26] Speaker A: Awesome. [00:24:27] Speaker B: Dave, thank you so much for sharing your story. That is. That is powerful. We actually have a hope church in Fayetteville now, and we're. It's just getting started and we're praying that God will use it as a, as a rescue mission for people that are going through all kinds of things in the military. I actually know a family that just moved there, and I'm trying to get them connected and precious husband, wife, I think four kids and such a need there. But thank you for sharing that. I had had no idea that you were there at Fort Bragg, which I believe is Fort Liberty now. It is so. [00:25:06] Speaker D: But it's Fort Bragg to us. [00:25:09] Speaker B: Yes, yes. It'll always be Fort Bragg in our hearts. But I was just wanting to ask you, as you shared your story, what was your experience like as a student at Houzz Anderson College? [00:25:21] Speaker D: Well, initially it was awkward for me because I was so, I was a young Christian. I can remember the first couple weeks of chapel sermons. I thought, I'm not saved. According to what these people are saying, I'm not saved. And I was intimidated. I really wanted to bail out the first semester. And then that was accelerated when I went to see a staff member, and really looking back, I just wanted somebody to validate me. Thank you for being here. Pat on the back. And I walked into his office, scheduled, appointed, walked into his office and I said, started to explain what was going on in my life. He stood up and he started to walk beside me, then behind me to the door, and I thought, what did I say? What I do here? He said, I think what you need is to go see. And then he recommended another staff member. Well, listen, if anybody could have known what was going on in my heart, I wanted him to just talk to me like a father would talk to me. Thank you for being here. But he didn't. Basically, I sought his rejection and I left that meeting, and this all was the first semester. And walked down the hallway with a mixture of emotions number one, confusion. Number two, anger. Number three, I was hurt. It's like, what? What did I do wrong? Of course, here I am, an army veteran, 22 years of age, experiencing that, been angry for feeling the way I did so. But I got over that and then got into some ministries and was put into leadership positions. Like first weekend in the bus ministry, I became a bus captain. So I've always been in leadership positions. And the truth is, those early days were good because I was ignorant, brand new Christian for 16 months. And I just believed what everybody said. I didn't know theology, so I accepted everything. Met my wife there. That was a great thing. Got married in 1984. Being a married man, going to college was difficult, physically taxing, because I'm in Chicago, in the ministry all weekend long. So that was very taxing. I was unhealthy a lot because I wasn't taking care of myself. But overall, it was a good experience, and I think a lot of it is because I just pretty much stayed ignorant of the bigger picture. But what did take place after I was hired in the ministry there probably 19 94 95, somewhere in the mid nineties, I could tell I was just empty. And it was the same experience that I had before I was a Christian. And I couldn't analyze myself spiritually back then. I can now. But it was like, what is going on with me? I thought, okay, I need to get away from this for a while. And my greatest escape is to go back to the Cascade mountains where I grew up and, you know, spend a little bit of time of fishing out in the mountains and doing some hiking. So went to my wife and I said, tina, I need to get for a while, and I need to go back out west. She said, dave, I'll just trust you. And didn't even go see my family members until the last day. Did a lot of praying, did a lot of crying because I was spiritually empty. I was spiritually bankrupt. And that had a lot to do with the emphasis, because the emphasis at that time was just all about doing ministry, ministry, ministry, ministry, ministry. Of course, I wasn't developed spiritually mature at that time or philosophically. So I really didn't understand. All I knew was, I've got to find Jesus, because if this is Christianity, and these were the very thoughts, if this is Christianity, I'm checking out. And so this is probably, what, maybe eight years after I, you know, got saved or so, something like that. But so I began to read some books that were forbidden because there were a lot of books forbidden. And, you know, I look back that now, and it's like, wow, that's. That's kind of a dangerous sign right there. And I could recall the one of my, somebody that I worked for, I had a book up on the shelf, and he just. He was pacing back and forth and looking at all my books. He says, is this your book? And I said, yes, sir. He goes, you really need to be careful about reading that. And I said, okay. I didn't know it was wrong or bad, and so I didn't stop reading it. I just took it off the shelf. So it was a struggle. But again, I think ignorance protected me. And Nathan, the truth is that I needed a very strict, regimented, let me just say, I needed legalism at that time because it was easy for me to do. But as Paul said in Romans chapter seven, it slew me, it deceived me. Living by the commandments, living by the rules. It is an artificial form of godliness. And so I didn't know that at that time, but I can easily analyze it right now. So I went on a campaign, but I just didn't know where to get books. This was before the Internet and logging onto some site. So I did very little of the reading, but still struggle. But the biggest thing, biggest change in my life was being sent to Greekville, South Carolina, for counseling training. Jack Scott was the pastor at that time, and a good friend of mine passed, don Boyd passed away. And so he needed an assistant pastor or an associate pastor to help him out. And he wanted me to do the counseling for the entire church, except for what he designated for himself. So, three weeks of training down in South Carolina and North Carolina, one week at North Carolina, and I got my biblical counseling certification. But it was okay. Again, I'm going to reveal the first day Jim Benny sat down with me. Jim Benny was the head of that ministry, lead ministries. He says, well, let me see your theological background. He said. He asked the question, he said, have you taken systematic theology? Systematic what? Never heard of the term. He goes, you know, systematic theology? I said, jim, I'm sorry, I don't know what that is. And shame on me, but shame on a culture also. And so he says, well, don't they teach the Bible up there? And I said, oh, yeah. I said, they do have a class called Bible doctrines. So I was not aware of any of the terms that I am now very, very familiar with. And so we worked through that. But those were three weeks of transformation. And I remember the second or third day listening to Jim and his staff work with couples who at that time, all of them had moral failures. The questions that they would ask. I literally sat in the counseling appointments and the second or third day he even said, dave, if you have questions, you may ask questions to these couples also. But I went back to the motel room and I cried like a baby. But they were not tears of sorrow, they were tears of joy, because I felt like I had finally discovered what I was looking for and the word of God in the person of Jesus Christ. And I have never stopped since then. I'm an avid reader and buy books galore, conferences, counseling conferences every year. But that was a big changing point. So I wouldn't say if I'm going to be, have to label myself. Maybe in the mid nineties I was a recovering fundamentalist. But once I met Jim Benny 2010, my eyes were wide open and my motive was helping people to understand what true Christianity is. I do remember confronting Jack Scott one time after coming back from those trainings sessions down there, and I said, brother Scott, we have some wrong philosophies here at First Baptist church. And he started laughing. And I really sincerely, he was my favorite of all my pastors at that time. When he was healthy, he was healthy at that time. And, but he laughed at me and he just kind of smoothed it over and said, you've been hanging around Jim Benny, haven't you? And I said, yeah, but it's good. So that was the really awakening of my life is being awakened to theology and how in biblical counseling you need to know theology. And so I think that were, those were two back in the mid nineties, I was ready to call it quits 2010. I think my real ministry began. [00:34:32] Speaker C: So, Dave, if I can ask a question. So you were new to the faith, military background. I think that likely influenced your, the appeal of legalism. But you were, you were admittedly ignorant of the scripture. You had no theological foundation, and yet you were able to excel to the, to the place of being on staff. Can you as a means of discipleship talk about how does a man who is new to the faith theologically ignorant with no real theological foundation, how do you excel in an institution that would consider itself a theological institution, a christian institution? How does that even happen? Because it should be seen as impossible. [00:35:37] Speaker D: Yeah, well, I was a producer. They didn't look at the criteria of how much theology, you know, it's a producer. I'm going to say this, and I understand, you know, the audience that is listening in here and I'm not going to totally please anybody here. We have ends of both spectrum. But the truth is, I was a producer and theology was not on the radar at all. I was gifted as a leader, and I was always in a leadership position, and so I fit right into the mold. [00:36:17] Speaker C: So how do we reconcile this? JC Groves frequently says something that I appreciate. We're not laboring for acceptance. We're laboring from acceptance. [00:36:31] Speaker D: Absolutely. So. [00:36:32] Speaker C: So, Dave, when, when the position of the church is confrontational to the position of Jesus Christ, how do we reconcile that? Cause Jesus is saying, I've already accepted you. You're accepted based on my completion of the gospel work. The church is saying, you need to labor for acceptance. How do people reconcile when the church and Christ and the message opposes one another? [00:37:09] Speaker D: Well, here, my spin on that is this. You either having church full of ignorant people and they just accept the status quo, which I did for many years. And I think one of my greatest advantages is I investigate. I'm a thinker. And going back to that mid nineties where I thought, this can't be Christianity. And it was a very isolated. Again, I've already mentioned you can't read this book. You can't read that book. Um, and so I don't know if I could accurately, I could give you my spin on it, but it's just, you didn't have to be. And you, and there's still a lot of churches out there like that. It's just the production. Are you a soul winner? And this statement that I'm going to make here is going to frustrate a few people. But I have heard two of my pastors make fun of theology. So that kind of answers it right there. [00:38:18] Speaker A: Dave. I think there's a lot of, excuse me, a lot of people listening that are tuning in that are either kind of like, okay, why is Dave Douglas on the recovering fundamentalist podcast? There's another group that have been part of Hou Anderson that are now on the other side of this, and they're like, okay, why is Dave Douglas on the recovering fundamentalist podcast? You just said something. I'm not going to please either one. There's going to be folks on both sides that are going to be like, what? I just. As one of the hosts, I thank you for coming on. I just want to ask, Dave, why are you here? What brought you on the recovering fundamentalist podcast? [00:38:56] Speaker D: Okay. Well, of course, for three years, I've denied Nathan and I have had a dialogue, and I said, no, Nathan, I'm too busy. I'm in a church plant. I got a counseling ministry. But JC, when you listen to literally no exaggeration, hundreds of hurt people. Let's increase it. Thousands of hurt people. And, you know, and they're not always in independent fundamental Baptist churches. Sometimes they're in contemporary churches, that the root cause of their issues is their view of God. They just don't get who God is. And so, and then here's one that just, when the lady left, I wept. I cried when she said, dave, she said, my adult daughters tell me that, mom, you made me weird. You made us weird. And so she grieves over that. And I grieve over that. There's a church nearby in Porter county that father in a public setting hit his adult son in the face because he embarrassed him in front of the church. Some of his behavior don't recall the entire story. But, JC, when you listen to thousands of people hurt, and they are clueless to this, who is God other than the picture that pastors have painted. And let me just stop and parenthesize. Not all IFB churches are unhealthy. I know a lot of good ones. And so that needs to be said. And I'm not going to name churches and I'm not going to name names, but there's a lot of unhealthy ones also. So it was based upon burden. And I thought, Dave, you have been too quiet for too long, which is my nature. And I said, no, I want to be a voice to get this out there. I have counseled people that have been sexually abused by assistant pastors and violently. And that assistant pastor came from another church that swept the rug under, swept all the dirt underneath the rug and said, move on. There were more than one teenage girls that were violated in that church. One of them, about a year ago, committed suicide. It's just too heavy of a burden. Now, personally, I believe if you violate a minor, I think it should be life in prison or I think it should be the death sentence. I really do, because I'm the one that catches their burdens. And it's just like, what a mess. And I'm one of the few that will stay with them, which I hope we can get into here a little bit later, is more churches need to have trained biblical counselors, and if they can't do that, then they need to start feeding them out to qualified biblical counselors because there's a lot of pastors, and I understand they're very, very busy and so they don't have. And by the way, counseling can be incredibly a heavy burden. I just happen to be one of these strange ones that enjoys it. And course, I have my limitations also. But JC, when you hear these stories, they kill you. And it was just as though I cannot remain silent anymore. And somebody has to do something. It has to be more than Dave Douglas in this broadcast. [00:42:31] Speaker B: Amen. [00:42:32] Speaker D: And some of the IFB pastors, the good ones that I know, I know one nearby here, within 2 hours, he's training counselors, but more need to. But I think they, in their mind, think our rules, our regulations and our standards should take care of all the problems. Not the least. It's just incredible how frustrated people are. They want help, but they can't get help. So they go to the next church, whether it's contemporary or fundamental, and they don't get help there. They don't get help there. Where are the pastors that have a compassion for the sheep? Where are the shepherds at? We're good at church building. And that philosophy has just destroyed so much production, production, production, production, production, production. You know, we have here in recent months, we average about 95. I don't know if I want to grow anymore. I really don't. I just love these people, and they're great people, but there's probably 80% of them carry heavy, heavy burdens. And unfortunately, some of the problems were how they were hurt by a church culture. And culture is equated with attitude. The attitude, it's not just legalism, it's a culture again. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, and we did daredevil things. That's kind of a key word for stupid things. We would jump off rock cliffs in one time, a platform that the engineers built for the salmon to go around the waterfalls into these bubbly water. And sometimes it would look real calm on the top. But once you got down five, 6ft, you were swept under with a current. And that's what a culture is. In a church. It looked all peaceful and all wonderful, but, boy, you start peeling back the layers, you realize it's not a healthy church. And there needs to be an education on what is a healthy church. What does the healthy church look like? And here's the bottom line. There is such a great emphasis on the great commission. Well, we're not a church if we don't win souls to Christ. What we don't evangelize. JC, Brian Nathan. What happened to the great commandments? Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul and mind and body, and love thy neighbor as thyself. And so when that is diminished, excuse me, when that is ignored, the great commandment is ignored. It's going to diminish the great commission where we get rotating, you know, I'll check it out. I'm gone. Check it out. I'm gone. Check it out. I'm gone. And so we really need to get back to the person of Jesus Christ. And I've told my congregation a multitude of times, I feel absolute guilty if I don't mention Christ, the person of Christ, or the works of Christ in my sermon frequently. And this Sunday, I taught what a grace oriented church looks like and had seven points. And we need to get rid, we need to rid ourselves of the legalistic churches because it is not biblical. It is not, I repeat to everybody out there, it is not biblical. And we have traded the law of the Old Testament for the law of Christ. And we see this in Galatians, chapter six, and we see it in the great commandment. And so people just ignore they. Many of the churches were started or built or had a significantly influential pastor. And so now they just followed the pastor and for the world. To me, even as an ignorant young man in college, it's like, why is everybody worshiping pastor heils? I don't get it. Never did get it. I didn't use the worshiping. But why does everybody fear him? Like, and I can remember as a freshman, I just used the term Jack Hiles. And I had about three guys attack me. It's doctor Hiles. It's not Jack Hiles. Like, oh, okay. So I am telling you what I hear, because a lot of the people that come to me, number one, and the fault could be on them, too, for not pursuing and not being diligent. Diligent about learning doctrine. But when you have a church that it's all about, let's go, go, go, do, do. And very little doctrine and very little love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all thy mind, and love thy neighbor as thyself. And since I'm on a roll, let me keep going here. What does a legalistic church do? It's a checkbox Christianity. It's just like, okay, I got a haircut. Okay, now I have a suit and tie. Okay, now I'm faithful to church. Okay. Now I'm helping out with this ministry over here, and it's checkbox, checks block. But what, how does that affect the heart? It has zero effect on the heart. And so what happens are these families and these individuals begin to believe, hey, I. And again, it is an art, artificial form of godliness, legalism. That's the best definition I have ever read. It's not true Christianity. And by the way, I'm somewhat conservative. Our church here is traditional. We sing traditional hymns, but we also have contemporary songs. But it has to be my standards. We have to lift up the name of Christ. Not a big fan of the, you know, six phrases over and over again, but I don't criticize those who do that. And so we need to draw a line somewhere. We could talk about secondary separation, because second separate secondary separation goes from there to I'm separating from you because of the books you read. [00:48:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:48:52] Speaker A: So we started this podcast five years ago to help and encourage people whose lives have been negatively affected by fundamentalist legalism in the church and to challenge people who promote tradition over scripture. You said something a minute ago that I want to press into a little bit. What? Why do you feel like there are pastors, there are people that see legalism but never take a stand, they never step up, they never speak out against that. Would you speak into that a little bit? [00:49:25] Speaker D: Sure, JC, that's a good question. And I had to ponder on that for several years. They're truly not independent. They're very concerned what the church down the road thinks about them, what the conference speaker thinks about them, so they're truly not. Now, Grace Baptist is unaffiliated, but I truly am independent. And I'm old enough that I perform to Jesus Christ. I care what my wife thinks about me, my family thinks about me, my church members. But as far as my ministry philosophy, my doctrine, criticize me all you want, because it goes off like water off a duck's back. I just. I don't care. And I think there's a lot of the younger ones that want to impress, and you could see this on social media, you know? And by the way, some of these, these fundamental leaders, they're great guys. I have nothing against them, but I think they don't separate because they're trying to win their favor. They're men pleasers, and we switch that to becoming Christ pleasers. [00:50:36] Speaker C: So. So can I follow up on JC's question just a little bit? [00:50:40] Speaker D: If. [00:50:40] Speaker C: If we can. If we can make the lane as narrow as possible. Adam was silent regarding Eve's sin, and Adam's silence resulted in Adam's participation. When God reached the garden, he didn't call for Eve, he called for Adam. Adam was given the responsibility of headship and leadership, and therefore, Adam bore the brunt of the accountability. I've been most attacked because of my willingness to speak out against the legalism against the toxin that is often fundamentalism. What weight should pastors feel with regard to their silence? Do they not believe that God is going to hold them accountable for the garden of his church and that one day their silence, they'll be held responsible for that? To what level, Dave? Should you, Nathan, JC, myself, other pastors listening to this podcast, to what level should we be willing to lay our acceptance, our approval on the altar and sacrifice what is ultimately our pride for the sake of refusing to be silent regarding the sins of legalism and fundamentalism? [00:52:09] Speaker D: Yeah, Brian, to the ultimate level, for the sake of Christ, we're not performing before men. I mean, Paul, more than anybody makes that perfectly clear. The fear of man is a snare unto him. Proverbs. And so I want good relationships. The truth is, I go to these fellowships with several independent fundamental Baptist churches. But I tried it out one time, and you know what? There's a big difference. When you're out in the country and you really don't care what the big city pastor is talking about or the big church down the road 40 miles. They're good people and I can mix and mingle with them. I've listened to their preacher. They're humble men. So I do mix and mingle with them because I need pastoral fellowship. We've got a big church here that my, both of my sons go to, Bethel. It's a contemporary church. I like their pastor, Steve Dewitt, and I've met with him. He's a great guy. I enjoy him. He may not do things the way I do them, but I can't be the judge. But when it comes to legalism, we ought to put down the ultimate because it is absolutely, scripturally wrong. Now, is it a fundamental of the faith? No, I wouldn't put it in that category. But it is a huge secondary doctrine when misused hurts people. And so, again, Brian, you're in your fifties. I'm in my sixties. I like good friends. I don't have to have a lot of good friends. So I am one that will speak out. And I have in counseling rooms, and I have from my pulpit on many occasions, and now here to however many thousands are going on this broadcast, it's wrong. And I know some of the, some of these guys in pretty big names, they are full of pride. I'll say it again, they are full of pride. And, you know, their church often is a revolving door. And I think it is a competition to when other pastors come in and speak, look at my godly people based upon what the external appearance of the ladies. And by the way, I have nothing against women wearing modest dresses. Nothing against that. You start saying that that determines their holiness. You need to go back to college and you need to learn theology, and you need to stop being a people pleaser. And so again, it's all going to be different at the judgment seat of Christ. And we know from revelations, the first couple chapters in revelations, the seven churches, did one of them escape without criticism? I think there might have been one. The other ones. I have issues with you. All I can say is, I don't want Jesus to say, Dave, I have issues with you in the way you pastor the church. And I'm concerned. I'm always looking at that. Maybe I'm not doing enough in this area or that area, but what they do get here as a loving pastor, that doesn't throw guilt trips at them. Where were you? You're unfaithful. I don't go there. I want to edify them. These are hurting people for the most part. They need encouraged, they need inspired. They need to be taught how to have a relationship with Christ. So, yeah, Brian, to answer your question once again to the ultimate level, we all more pastors ought to talk about legalism. And who cares if people don't listen? I'm not looking for invitations. [00:55:52] Speaker B: Thank you, Dave. I think that's good. I think this question is going to get at the heart of really why I wanted to have you on here. One, I believe you're honest. Two, I don't think you're afraid to answer the difficult questions. JC already mentioned our mission statement that it includes legalism. We've been speaking out against legalism, fundamentalist legalism in the church, because I know there's a lot of different legalisms out there and different denominations and things, but we grew up in the independent fundamental baptist church, so we want to address that and help those that have been hurt. And you probably know more people than we do that have been hurt in that legalism. But we've defined legalism as having at least three different types the Bible directly addresses, and there could probably be more added to this list. But people have literally mocked us and made fun of us, saying that what we're calling legalism isn't even legalism, and it doesn't even exist in the church, especially in certain denominations and organizations. So I want to define these and just ask you to speak out about this. The first type of legalism that everybody agrees on is law keeping for salvation. That's for justification. Uh, the Bible does address that. But the Bible also addresses, addresses in Galatians, law keeping for sanctification, trying to earn God's favor by what you're doing. And the third type is law keeping apart from love for God, where you do the right things, even the moral law, things that are still applicable to us, but there's no love for God. You're just checking boxes off. So I guess I really just want to ask you a very direct question. Does legalism, mainly the second two types. Does legalism exist in the IFB? And specifically, did you encounter legalism in First Baptist? And did you encounter legalism in Howells Anderson College? [00:57:55] Speaker D: Yes. Yes. But may I say, the current pastor, he gets a lot of criticism, but I'm going to defend him because he inherited a mess, a huge mess. [00:58:08] Speaker B: We wouldn't disagree with that. [00:58:11] Speaker D: And I love him, and I perhaps am not going to make the same decisions that he made, but that's his position. But I love him. But yeah, it's there. It's absolutely. When you call a fundamentalist, anybody in IFB a legalist, it will ruffle their feathers like no other because they are attaching it to salvation and they don't attach that. I know of works by salvation, but what they're not aware of is you don't get sanctified by works either. Now I'm just going to go real quickly over some things here. Sanctification by grace. Galatians three. Three. Are ye so foolish? Have them begun in the spirit? Are ye now made perfect in the flesh? That's just one verse. There are numerous that revealed to us that sanctification is also for our personal growth. And you can't do works. So it's God. Philippians 213. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. So that's just one verse, JC. Or, excuse me, Nathan, I know you're familiar with that, but there's other ways we could be sanctified. Struggle, trials, all that draws us closer to God. But God is the ultimate in that sanctification role. What is our role? We just need to hear and respond. That's it, period. And we see in first Thessalonians one nine, for they themselves show of us what manner of entering in we had unto you. And how ye turned from God. Excuse me? How ye turned to God, from idols to serve the living and true God. Okay, that's our role. It's not that. Hey, if I win 17 people to Christ over the weekend, God is going to raise me to a higher level. It's not, while I'm devoting my life to the entire ministry, I'm going to receive a higher level of sanctification. Absolutely not. It's primarily God. And you'll find this in theology books and famous authors all throughout. It's just not. But they get really angry because they're not seeing it that way. Although especially the book of Galatians and the Book of Romans revealed that sanctification is a work of God. Yeah. [01:00:51] Speaker C: So I was talking to a pastor a little while back who attended Hiles, and he left Hiles because of all of the antics surrounding soul winning and, you know, baptism competitions and all the rest. He said one day they, they arrived at a really poor apartment complex. They had, I think he said, freezie pops in a cooler on the back of a truck. They had a tub of water. All these kids are outside playing in the hot sun, and there's some competition to win a soul winning, I guess, game, I wouldn't know what else to call it. He said, they literally pulled up and they said, if you want a freezie pop, you need to get baptized. If you're going to get baptized, everybody pray this prayer. Was there never a time when, as you became more aware of biblical theology, that you were more grieved by that because it's such a cheapening of the cross of Jesus Christ? The most valuable treasure we have is the gospel. It is the treasure of the church. My approach to fundamentalism, Dave, is different than yours, and I'm comfortable with that, but for me, it's a matter of the gospel. And Paul never defended anything more fiercely than he defended the gospel. [01:02:30] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:02:31] Speaker C: My issue with fundamentalism is the gospel. [01:02:34] Speaker D: Right. [01:02:34] Speaker C: And so I believe to cheapen the cross of Christ, to cheapen the gospel, it grieves the heart of God and should, by the influence of the Holy Spirit, grieve the heart of a believer. And so I'm just wondering, did you ever encounter that? [01:02:47] Speaker D: Yeah, and still do. And that's one of the reasons I consented to coming on this podcast. And what you just described, I never personally saw that, but I heard stories of those things. But keep in mind, these were all being performed by 1819, 2021 years old, that somebody was saying, if you have this many, you're going to get this. There's some type of promotion or just the basic human pride instincts. You know, there's several bus, different bus divisions. And we always, you know, they always wanted to be the one with the biggest. You know, it was a pride thing. It totally was a pride thing. So, yes, that does grieve me. Which also leads me to the way they go about evangelizing. You know, they'll give them the four points of the gospel. Do you believe that? Yes. Would you like to pray and accept Christ as your savior? Yes, pray this prayer. I have big issues with that because romans ten says three times, for with the heart leaveth unto righteousness. Now, what is the heart? It is the intellect, it is the emotions, it is the will of man. Meaning the gospel will change you. You can't just say, oh yeah, I said this prayer and nothing ever happened. Matthew, chapter seven. Again, Jesus addresses, I never knew you depart from me. But Lord, Lord, I did all this work for you. So this, whatever you want to call it, easy believism, is a big bunch of baloney. And there have been times I have witnessed the people that they were heavily distracted where I just backed up and I said, maybe I can come back and talk to you a different time because I know that they have to believe in thine heart, everything, and they're not mentally prepared nor spiritually prepared. And so, yeah, that I think goes on a lot of different places. And that was something that Jack Hiles heavily defended. If somebody prayed the prayer of salvation, they're saved. And I just cannot agree with that. [01:05:09] Speaker B: Well, Dave, I think a lot of our listeners, probably the majority of listeners are concerned about a culture that you were talking about at Hiles, Anderson and other universities, colleges. I think there are some others that are equally, or maybe worse, toxic, maybe equally. But I really want to get real and address with you because you and I have talked about this behind the scenes. I believe there's a culture there from Jack Howells who had many moral issues, moral failings, moral questions. And by the way, there are still independent fundamental Baptists on Twitter and social media that are denying that he ever did anything wrong when it's literally been confirmed by his family and multiple sources like there's no question. But Jack Hiles had some immoral issues. His son Dave failed many times, abused many girls, and it just was shuffled around. He's still in ministry now. Never been, I don't think, officially charged or held accountable for any of that. The Jack Scott situation. And you're right, Wilkerson inherited a mess. And the only thing I would say about Wilkerson is from what I'm aware of this new tv show, let us pray, that I have watched, you said that you haven't seen that yet, and I'll let you talk about that. But I do know that multiple victims that were abused at the church have tried to approach him. And he's, from what I'm aware of, has refused to even sit down and talk to them. I feel like for decades there has been a culture of sexual abuse and sweeping things under the rug, as you said. And I don't think anybody would take us seriously if we didn't ask you about this. So I wanted to see what you had to say on that. [01:07:16] Speaker D: Yeah, it's a legitimate question, one that the whole thing grieves me. Before I left, after I resigned, John Wilkerson, I had a good talk. He is a gracious man. But I did say pastor. One of the reasons is that I just, I am grieved by the continual scandals which were all done prior to John Wilkerson. And a lot of people are not going to like this. But I will defend John Wilkerson because he is a very good man. These things did not happen on his watch, nor did he create the culture on his watch, but he inherited all of it. Now, would I do things differently than he? In some areas, yes. I just don't know. I've never sat, none of us have ever sat where John Wilkerson has. Sad I didn't watch. Let us pray. I had opportunities, but when you listen to horror stories like me, you got to really work to protect your mind. And I knew that that was going to be a horrific one. And I know the big propagator of that. One of the ladies, she used to be in my adult Sunday school class, good person, good married couple there. But they're grieving, they're hurt. And I would just like to say all of you who, quote, have been hurt by the IFB. When is the healing going to begin? Because the healing needs to start. Listen, I have been hurt on multiple occasions. I have been humiliated in public services from the pastor standing behind the pulpit. And I won't go into details, but one time I looked out in the audience and there my wife is bawling her eyes out. And I'm like, why did you say that? What did I do to you? But I am one that I refuse to allow bitterness to stay planted in my heart. I don't know how many years I'm going to live, but I want to live every year. And I meet a lot of bitter people. And that's not helping a thing. It's only fueling the fire. So I would say those people need to heal and if they have healed, that's fine. But if they are trying to have a bigger platform to make awareness. I'm not against that because it does need to stop. And. But I just. I'm going to side with John Wilkerson on this. He may not do things the way you or I would do it, but he didn't do it. He didn't create. If he's not going to appear on that video, that's his choice. I don't even know if I would. More than anything, he wishes it would go away, but those people will not let him take it. And to my knowledge, I don't recall there being any sexual scandal since he's becoming. Has become the pastor. It's just, you know, off the cuff. I don't recall any, but he has to deal with it, and so I'm going to go easy on him. [01:10:28] Speaker B: What about the culture he inherited and the ones who did create that, namely Jack Hiles and Jack Scott? I think a lot of people would want to hear that be seriously addressed. [01:10:42] Speaker D: Judgment, seat of Christ, because we can't do anything about it. Yeah, it's sickening. It is incredibly sickening. And of course, the vast majority of all First Baptist church remained ignorant about it. But then when the first scandal came out with Brother Hiles, we just all denied it that we have a godly pastor. And like you, I privy to information to know that he was an immoral man. And I hate to say that because he did favors for me and my wife. Along with Jack Scott, he helped me in different areas, but, yeah, a horrible cesspool, a sewer. And I, if anything, when John Wilkerson became the new pastor back in 2013, many of us wanted him to really take drastic action to make it very, very clear we're going a different direction. I don't think that happened the way that many people wanted it to happen. That was also about the time my two adult sons left and went to another church in northwest Indiana. But what do you do in a situation like that? I know there's people that would like to burn the place down, but whatever happened to revitalize, whatever happened to reorganization and those type of things, and we're talking about the church of Christ here, and it's not our church, but all I can say about the previous, it is true. It happened. It's shameful. It hurt many people. Many people walked away from God because of that, and to this day are still not back in church. [01:12:26] Speaker C: So I agree he inherited a toxic culture, but I think there would be biblical basis for saying, by all means, you don't try to build from a toxic culture. There is a time to demolish and completely reconstruct even, you know, earlier you referenced the book of Revelation. Jesus is ultimately the lead pastor of the church. He is the head of the church. And there were local church bodies that Jesus himself closed. You're finished. You're done. It's not that there was never a church raised up in that region or that city again, but we know that, that by the grace of God, faith continues. And, you know, we have multiple stories in scripture to see the process of beginning again. I just wonder the pressure that he felt to try to build on the toxic culture. Because one of the tenets of fundamentalism is we're right. Our foundation is right, everyone else is wrong. And. And people will rally around tradition much quicker than they will rally around truth often. And so that would be one of my questions. But. But I do have this question. Knowing that Jack Kyles was an immoral man, knowing, you know, just the pure toxicity and poison that poured out of him when he was behind the pulpit, it was obvious that he relished it. You can watch. And it's for a believer who's sensitive to the Holy Spirit, it's nauseating. How is it possible that there are people who are still so confused that they idolize him? Bob Gray cannot even talk about Jesus without talking about Jack Howells. And on occasion, for some ignorant reason, I'll stop and watch just a moment of one of his videos. And he talks about Jack Howells more than he talks about Jesus. Do you believe that is the result of the David Koresh culture that Jack Howells created? Why is it that we're not able to separate ourselves from that and rightly point people to Jesus? Dave, what would be your answer? And I hope that's a fair question. [01:15:08] Speaker D: No, it's a fair question. Idols of the heart. The idol of power, the idol of fame, the idol. He was grabbing onto the coattails of Jack Hiles because he knew he's got a, you know, a large following. And anytime a pastor has an idol of the heart, I don't care what the idol is. It's dangerous. Just parentheses. If I'm angered or frustrated with somebody, I have to quickly deal with it, because I have resolved in my heart I will never stand behind that pulpit frustrated or angry, because we all know where it's going to go. And I think somebody like a Bob Gray, who I do respect, his sons, I know scott Gray, good man. Bob Gray junior, good man. Of course, a couple years, he came out on that sermon that went viral. But I believe there's pride involved. I believe that there is an idol in his heart that he is not aware of, but many of us can see it. And that is the idol of power, the idol of influence, the idol of fame. Could be all three of them. Could be more than that. So that is my speculation. [01:16:30] Speaker A: I got a question for you. Is Hiles Anderson considered a legitimate academic theological institution? [01:16:43] Speaker D: Help me with that one, because I think. What's that? [01:16:50] Speaker A: Is it true that hou X Anderson doesn't teach hermeneutics? [01:16:54] Speaker D: I've been gone almost four years. It taught hermeneutics when I was there. To be honest with you, JC, I don't know what they're doing now because I just, my future is more important than my past, and I'm not going to let my past determine my future. So I don't know. But I do know there was a long time when I was in college, they did not teach hermeneutics. And it'd be shocking if any Bible College, christian college, who offered theology did not teach hermeneutics. My opinion is, close your doors. [01:17:32] Speaker B: Hmm. [01:17:34] Speaker A: That's why I asked that. You were there. Were you, were you president for four years? [01:17:40] Speaker D: Three and a half. [01:17:41] Speaker A: Three and a half. Your intention in 2017, taking the presidency of Hiles Anderson? Was it a heart to bring change to the toxic culture, the ideologies of what? Howells Anderson, what was your mindset going in and saying, yes after the asking, I will take the presidency of Hiles Anderson? Were you trying to ride a ship? What was your mindset in 2017 when. [01:18:11] Speaker D: You said, okay, yeah, good question, JC. And I do recall that, first of all, I was very hesitant because again, by nature, I'm just pretty much a private person. I'm your stereotype introvert. Was not real enthusiastic about a national platform, but also realized God uses people like that. And yes, definitely the, what I was, when I was described, what the president did was day to day operations that did not appeal to me at all. And so, but I had an influence and I, I intentionally tried to change a culture. One of the men that is very high up there, it was shortly before, shortly after I left, he said to me, he said, dave, you are the only president in the history of Hiles Anderson College that was a spiritual leader. And I was taken aback by that. After I left, I processed it and it's like, okay, well, that's why I was doing what I did. And so, yes, it was to change a culture. I brought a prayer culture there. We had some very powerful prayer meetings with the students got involved. Some even said they were a revival. I would not go as far to say that they were revival, but certainly a spiritual awakening. And that was almost the entire tenure. And I still believe that they're pretty big on praying. In other words, I identified, we need to get rid of the self sufficiency of man, because every man worshipers, and it's all about, look at that man, look at that man and get your picture. And the conference brochure and the way they would introduce people from the youth conferences and everything, it was just like, oh, my goodness. God, it grieved me. It embarrassed me. [01:20:15] Speaker A: So did you ever walk out with fire and fireworks and confetti? Dave Douglas one time, and I was embarrassed. We got to find that video. [01:20:26] Speaker D: No, you don't. [01:20:27] Speaker A: Okay. [01:20:30] Speaker D: So, yeah, all those things disturb me. But I do believe I did help. But as I was saying to Nathan here in a recent conversation, anybody who set out to change a culture, you better have a lot of people with that same mindset, and you better be able to risk it all, because it is incredibly taxing. And another thing I know that was a big help is I brought in my military experience. Day number, week number one. I inspected all the dormitories bad. And so I began to instill morale by discipline. I learned this in the army because I was two years. My duty station was just low morale. Do what you want when you want. We're not prepared for war. We're not going to have a war. Drugs, alcohol, and the morale was rock bottom. Just everybody had a horrible attitude. Then I got orders to go to Fort Bragg, North Carolina. Well, you got special forces in North Carolina. You got second airborne. You have elite units down there. And it was a whole different army. It was train, train, train, run until you're dead. It was just incredible. But I did notice something, the morale. We were all that hoorah, you know, type of army. And so I learned a lesson there. If you don't make them clean the dormitories, they're not going to do it. Cleanliness and godliness. It's just. It's character. You feel good about yourself. So, long story short, yeah, I felt I made a dent there. A prayer culture, but it wore on me. I often thought, Dave, what are you doing here? And, you know, I, from my office, could see that the statue of Jack and Beverly Hiles. And Beverly Hiles was just a godly, beautiful woman. But so much controversy that bothered me. And so changing a culture is incredibly difficult. You got to have many people on board. [01:22:40] Speaker A: So when you leave a ministry. I've started a church, a college ministry in my 20 years. When you leave, you want it to be successful. You want to hope that you've created some change that will continue on, that the legacy there behind you will continue to be fruitful and grow. Looking back a few years out, how do you feel Al Sanderson is today as a result of your three and a half years of presidency there? You feel like it's slipped back? Do you feel like it's moving forward? [01:23:15] Speaker D: Yeah, Jason, I don't know because my mind said move on and I can't look backwards and forwards at the same time. There's a few people that I'm connected with up there, but I don't ask questions because I want to put my whole heart into my counseling ministry and Grace Baptist church. So I, and I'm not avoiding a question. I really, truly don't know how they're doing. [01:23:41] Speaker B: I want to go back to the hermeneutics question, because, Dave, you and I had a private conversation about this pretty extensive, and we're both passionate about this. I believe this is the linchpin of the biggest problem in the IFB, is they're not truly preaching the Bible. They're using the Bible as a springboard. How big of a deal is hermeneutics, and how much could this help Hiles Anderson and the IFB as a whole, if they would truly teach students and model for students how to properly interpret the Bible? [01:24:20] Speaker D: Well, it's the difference between a cult and a true church. You can't just pick a verse out and say, okay, this is what it says. But you know, what I have seen here, and I'll answer the question here, is there's a lot of big name preachers, youth speakers, they'll just pick one phrase out of a verse, and that is the sermon title. And they could take that wherever they want. And so if you do not know the rules of interpretation, it's frightening. And so they have to. I don't know who I'm speaking to, but if it's not really a Bible college, if they're not teaching hermeneutics, they have. And the only reason I can see where they don't is because they don't have anybody qualified. Now, back in 2014 or 15, I went to one of the members of the administration and said, why are we not teaching hermeneutics? And this is after I'm learning all the biblical counseling and theology. And the next year, and I think Ken Scott taught it, thinks, or he had a lot to do with it. So they had hermeneutics. So it's been off and on again. I taught it one year, but the only reason they wouldn't is because any college is because they don't have anybody qualified. And it doesn't take a lot of brain work to learn how to. To teach hermeneutics. But, boy, I'll tell you what, it opens up a whole brand new world of the word of God. And, you know, I was there and I looked backwards and I thought, I am so ashamed of some of the things I used to preach. You got to. You got to approach God's word as holy, sacred, and you can't mess it up with your humanistic. And the cultural change from the Bible was written and what's going on today, it's dangerous. [01:26:19] Speaker C: Bottom line, don't you think it's also possible that the Bible can really get in the way of a great sermon? Well, don't you think it's also possible that if. If the key to your power is ignorance, I mean, if you can get up and preach the king James Bible corrects the Greek, then people are ignorant. Well, if you start teaching them the Bible, then you lose your power due to the fact that they become educated. I mean, just personally, that's just an opinion. [01:26:52] Speaker D: Yeah, no, I would agree with your opinion, but, you know, if they would just stick to expository or topical, textual, not topical, topical, textual. And you have to just absolutely bathe it with God's word. I don't see how any pastor, true pastor, could ever just say, here, let's read this verse, close your bibles. And that's a self willed pastor, and that's dangerous. [01:27:24] Speaker A: Yes. [01:27:25] Speaker D: And I don't want to be next in line when he stands at the judgment seat of Christ. [01:27:30] Speaker C: Yeah, we have to be a slave to the text. That's what I say to guys frequently. [01:27:36] Speaker D: Yeah. And this has been a work in process where I have to train and retrain and analyze. But every sermon, and by the way, I'm one of those weird ones that enjoy preparing a sermon. And so because my heart is changed by, it's like, oh, my goodness, this is good. [01:27:53] Speaker C: Amen. [01:27:54] Speaker D: But we have to have zero will in the game. And a lot of pastors will say, well, this won't be exciting. You know, we were going to talk about discipleship, but, you know, if more pastors in fundamental Baptist movement would teach or preach the topical, textual, or the expository they're discipling from the pulpit, and discipleship starts from the pulpit. And I'm fearful or concerned about all these youth conferences go on to get these candy stick sermons that, that just really rise and raise the emotions and they flood the altars. And this is the big issue. Emotions come and emotions go. And Jim Denny taught me a great truth back in 2010 when he was mentoring me, that it has to absorb the word of God, has to absorb the intellect first and then to the heart level, because these emotional cotton candy Serbians just don't last long. But when you get the word of God within you, faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word, or Remna, or the spoken word of God to your heart. This is what causes faith, one of the sources of faith that really will transform a life. Not these cotton candy sermons. [01:29:26] Speaker C: The thing is, if they teach verse by verse, they'll start caring as much about how they handle birds nest as women wearing men's attire. [01:29:35] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:29:36] Speaker B: Well, Dave, you. You mentioned disenchantment, and I think before we get off, I would love for you, as a pastor, as a shepherd, as someone who was the leader of the flagship organization of the IFB, to speak to institutions and pastors still in the IFB, what would you love? To see change? Because obviously you believe it can be salvaged. We even have a difference of opinion on here. Some of us believe that IFB can be salvaged. Some thinks it needs to be burned to the ground. And we've had those debates before. But as someone that I think you believe the IFB can be salvaged, and there's still good churches in the IFB, what would you just give as a plea to pastors and institutions in the IFB as what they need to change and what they need to do to honor God? [01:30:34] Speaker D: Yeah. Let me sidestep the question for a moment. There are many IFB churches out there that they're not involved in the conferences for lack of. Just why do I need to change my label? They don't care because their church is growing. They're healthy. So there are, and I'm aware of them. But when you want to be a man pleaser, that is very dangerous. I mean, you are going to go whichever way the wind blows. They are not grounded in the word of God. They talk to talk. And I recently watched a little clip of a conference, and it was like, this is all showmanship. This is, this is alarming. And young men acting like they own the world and saying things, you know, that they have the authority of everything. Well, the word of God has the authority, but you don't. So. But I would say, number one, stop being a man pleaser, because that's. That's the root of the big issue. Two, search your heart for idols, because if you have the idol of being recognized and you want a pat on the back and you want affirmation from men, it's no good. It's absolutely dangerous. Truly be independent, too. If you didn't get. If you don't have a theological background, then either self teach yourself. That's one of the things that I did from 2010, the number of theology books I have. Oh, my goodness. And I'm constantly reading, rereading, because I don't want to be found in air. But can I identify this disenchantment? Because there's a lot of people disenchanted in these type of very strict, legalistic churches or performance driven churches which exalt those who can perform, whether it's musical, whether it's. They're a great soul winner or they're a great organizer, or they're just a good personality to have around, they're in. But if some dysfunctional family comes into church and they're like, hey, you're a weight upon us. It's just like we ignore. And that's not a description of every IfB church. But I see it quite frequently. But let me just say something. Spiritual disenchantment is a feeling in the absence of God. So if a pastor preaches sermons about soul winning, separation, and then missions and all these things on their own, they're fine. But if it is very, just isolated, these are my five different doctrines that I preach on. And we never talk about the person of Christ. We never talk about the grace of God. We never talk about how God loves us. They're going to be disconnected from God. This is what brings disenchantment. This is what took place in my life in the mid 1990s. Augustine said this, thou hast created us for thyself, and our heart is not quiet until it rests in thee. So we need to go back also to emphasizing a relationship with Christ first and then the. All the extracurriculars after that. And this is why I never want to preach one sermon without exalting Christ. And occasionally it will happen, and we all walk away from that pulpit. We drive home, and it's like, lord, I'm sorry I messed up today. They may have thought it was a good message, but I didn't. And so we need to exalt that. So what happens is they get disenchanted. They start searching for another God. They're empty on the inside, which leaves rooms for the demons of hell to start chatting at them, tempting them, going different ways. What people need is God, a relationship with him. I can't say this enough, and I can't say it loud enough, and this brings on part of the whole healing process for those out there who are incredibly disenchanted. They're past disenchanted. They're angry, they're bitter. And I want to say, stop. Get back on board to a healthy church, even if it is a contemporary church, because they ostracize and they criticize contemporary churches so heavily. But the church is. I've been to services at Bethel here in Crown Point, Indiana, for Christmas services and my grandchildren participating. I may not agree with everything. I don't have to, but I like the culture there. I like the pastor. I like the humility of the pastor. I like how I know he studies God's word. And so it's just so. It's such a poor testimony to watch these churches hurt people, hurt the testimony of Christ. But what we know in the end, God's going to sort it out. But in the meantime, I think I will continue to give a significant amount of time to this and perhaps even writing a book on it. But it's very alarming. [01:35:58] Speaker B: Well, I just wanted to mention something very briefly. You said something early on that I didn't want to skip over, and we've all had those moments that just absolutely rocked our world, where we heard something in a sermon or we were reading scripture and it just blew us up. That happened for me, listening to a Louie Giglio sermon years ago, and we've shared it on the podcast here, and he mentioned something in that sermon that shifted the focus of my life, and I didn't even realize the impact when it happened, but he made the statement, God cares more about who you are than what you do. And you referenced that, Dave, and I appreciate that, because I do think that's something that could totally shift a direction in the IFB world and in institutions if we would focus on loving God, our relationship with him, and allowing our behavior to flow from our love for God and our belief. So thank you. Thank you for saying that. [01:37:02] Speaker A: Yes. [01:37:03] Speaker C: And I'd also like to say, and by the way, I'll back off of my microphone. I apologize that I've talked in the microphone like a southern gospel singer sings in a microphone. Um, you know, it's about halfway down your throat. Um, but, you know, Dave, I just want to say that I appreciate you. My dad is, uh, he's he's going to be 74 soon. And when my dad left fundamentalism, he's been attacked so viciously, publicly. He's had so many hundreds of people call and apologize to him for conversations they were a part of sermons they sat through where he was really attacked. He's been accused of loving his son more than he loves God, more than he loves truth, because people have said he followed me, which it was, which isn't true. If they knew how hard headed he was, they would know that. But a lot of people have said, at your age, Craig, why didn't you just remain quiet? Why did you speak up at this point in your life? And so you, you look younger than me, so it's odd, you know, me saying this to you, but at your age, I really admire your willingness to speak out for the sake of truth. I greatly appreciate that. There's so many cowards in ministry now. And sometimes, you know, sometimes a lack of cowardice looks like standing against sin, and, and sometimes a lack of cowardice or courage looks like standing for truth. And so thank you for doing that. And at the same time being far more kind than I often am. And so I really appreciate that and appreciate your. [01:38:48] Speaker D: Thank you. I want to make a statement here. I wrote this down days ago. The more you practice your set of rules, legalism, dress code and everything, the more you practice your set of rules, the less relationship you need with God. And that describes a lot of churches, that describes my condition in the mid nineties, but not knowing where to go at that time. So we need a revival. They often talk about revival, and I just question, what do you mean revival? What's a revival to you? Because I think a lot of pastors need revivals. And the way things are going, if a revival came, God doesn't have to limit it to the IFB. You look at some of the people God used in scripture and it's like, least likely, least likely. Least likely. So I don't know where this will all go, but I have tons of information that I haven't even talked about. Guys. [01:39:55] Speaker B: May need to do a follow up episode at some point. [01:39:59] Speaker A: Take two. Well, no doubt there will be folks that will listen to this that wished you would have gone a little bit more scorched earth and dug in a little bit more. There will be some that I'm sure you'll get some criticism that you've been on here. We do thank you for coming on the recovering fundamentalist podcast, watching and for the words that you've spoken here today. We ask all of our guests this question, and we would just love to hear from you. We asked this question, what is the gospel? What does the gospel mean to you? And we'd love to hear your response to what is the gospel? Dave Douglas. [01:40:33] Speaker D: Yeah, well, opposed to what most people think the gospel, it's more than salvation. They think the gospel is a one time thing. This morning I woke up to the gospel of Jesus Christ. In other words, I inspected my heart. I wanted to have a soul and a mind that is pleasing to him. And I read Matthew, chapter seven this morning. But the gospel is salvation. The gospel is sanctification. The gospel is relationship with Christ. The gospel is worship. The gospel is preparing for that day, that day when Christ returns. I mean, we could keep going on. The gospel is a whole lot more than just, hey, I got saved by the gospel. No, we live by on a daily basis, man. [01:41:23] Speaker A: Good answer. Well, thanks, Dave, for coming on with us today. And if you would, as we wrap up this episode, would you just close us in a word of prayer? [01:41:33] Speaker D: Yes, sure will. Let's pray. Father God, we thank, thank you for your goodness to you, us. And Lord, I pray that when this is aired that people will listen with a spiritual mind. I pray that they'll listen with a inspecting heart to see what's in there. And Lord, I just hope that we have honored you here. And Lord, thank you for this ministry that Brian, JC, and Nathan have, and may you protect them and preserve them. And Lord, we want to please you at the judgment seat of Christ, but we at the same time recognize that there is doctrine that is being taught that is wrong, very wrong, and it hurts people. God, may we honor you. And Lord, may we just please you in all that we do, in Jesus name. Amen. [01:42:22] Speaker C: Amen. [01:42:23] Speaker B: Dave, I was telling Brian and JC that when we started the recovering fundamentalist podcast in the end of 2019, did two preview episodes, and then in 2020 started this journey. I don't know if you were privy to us starting or anything like that, but we just realized the other day that when we started the podcast, you were the current president of Houzz Anderson University. And if someone would have told me four and a half years ago we would be interviewing you, I'm not sure I would have had that much faith. But I'm just so thankful and encouraged for what God is doing. Just the fact that we can have this conversation and where God is bringing you and thousands of other people that we have talked to. [01:43:08] Speaker D: Right? Amen. [01:43:09] Speaker A: Yep. That is a crazy thought and what a journey we have been on. And Dave, thanks for being here with us today. And thanks for tuning in to the recovering fundamentalist podcast. We will see you in the month of May. God bless y'all. Have a good week. [01:43:25] Speaker C: Meet sweet peace. [01:43:27] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to the recovering fundamentalist podcast. Be sure to stop by our social media, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Give us a follow. Also go to our website, recoveringfundamentalist.org. That's recovering fundamentalist.org dot. There you can find recovering fundamentalist swag. You can get your t shirts and hats. You can join our ex fundy community, see where we're gonna be having some meetups. It's the recovering fund fundamentalist.org. Be sure to join us next time for the recovering fundamentalist podcast.