Episode #196 "Leaving Brought Belonging"

[00:00:00] Speaker A: You are listening to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast, where faith and real life collide in a world full of noise, division, and debate. We're here to cut through the clutter with honest conversations, bold truth, and a whole lot of grace. Whether you're questioning, growing, or just trying to make sense of it all, you've got a seat at the table. Let's join JC Groves for today's episode. [00:00:24] Speaker B: Let's go. The Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast starts in three. [00:00:41] Speaker A: You know what makes women stupid is. [00:00:42] Speaker B: Colin, Jesus was not a bartender. You have lost your mind. [00:00:50] Speaker C: Long tongue. Heifers have given me a lot more trouble than heifers wearing britches, and you know that. [00:00:55] Speaker B: Say amen right there. 1. [00:00:57] Speaker C: Let me tell you something, bozo. They'll be selling Frosties in hell for this. Boy puts on a pair of pink underwear. [00:01:04] Speaker B: I sucked my thumb till I was 14 years of age. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. I'm your host, JC Groves, and this is episode number 196. Leaving brought belonging. And I'm excited to have Daniel Nguyen on the podcast with me today. Listen, friends, there is a cost to leaving legalism. You lose your seat at the table. You lose your approval. You lose the version of yourself that you were told was the only way to please God. But sometimes leaving is exactly what saves you. Today's episode is not just another story. It's a reminder that walking away from control and fear and shame doesn't lead to isolation. Many times, it leads to belonging. Daniel Wynn's journey is raw and real and covered with grace. He didn't just survive religious legalism. He found Jesus outside the walls of performance pressure. He found people who loved him. He found purpose that didn't require a pulpit and grace, not as doctrine, but as a person. And listen, if you've ever felt trapped in a system that used God's name but missed his heart, this episode is for you. It's episode number 196. Leaving brought belonging with special guest Daniel Nguyen. Hey, before we jump into the episode, we want to thank the sponsors of the RFP Mission University. They educate, inspire, and equip students to serve as effective Christian leaders. Find them today at Mission Edu. Of course, we want to thank GPM, Termite and Pest Solutions. You can call them at 423517 PEST. That's 423517, P E S T if you are in the Chattanooga North Georgia area. Hey, listen, I've partnered with Tyndale Publishers. We're going to be giving away four camouflaged CSB Bibles On Father's Day just a couple days from now, head on over to Recovering Fundamentalist social Media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and Ticket Talk and find out how you can get connected in this giveaway. Hey, I want to be sure to thank all the patrons of Patreon. Clint, Bryce, Kenneth, Adam, John and Kathy, Brett, Daniel, Toby, Tyler, Jonathan, and brand new Bree. Thank you for being part of the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast, for being a patron of Patreon and helping me continue on. We are pressing on. We're almost to episode number 200. I'll be honest, five and a half years ago when we started this podcast, episode 200 was kind of a goal that I wanted to get to. I never thought we would make it. But here we are almost six years later. Episode number 200 is coming and let me tell you, we have a huge giveaway. Episode 200. We've got the biggest giveaway we've ever given on this podcast. Roughly around $5,000 prize and it's going to be incredible. Tune in next week for all of the details on what the prize is, how you can get connected to it, and let's just say the state of Montana has something to do with it. That's all I'm going to tell you. Be sure to tune in next week to the Recovering Fundament podcast to find out how you can get in for our episode number 200 drawing that's going to happen later in the month of July. Well, like I said, this is episode number 196. The title is Leaving Brought Belonging. And I am super fired up to have a good friend, a friend of the podcast, a moderator on our RFP fam group for how many years running now? I can't even remember. Listen, you're about to hear from someone who didn't just walk away from legalism. He ran straight into to the arms of Grace Daniel Wynn. It only took us 196 episodes to get you on, but welcome, my friend to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. [00:04:50] Speaker A: Thank you. I'm. I'm super excited to be here. And since this is audio only, I just want you to know that I'm very excited to see the fog machines and the laser lights and the Joel Osteen posters. Exactly as I imagined. [00:05:03] Speaker B: Yes, I have doves over here on my right and pretty sure we have Sammy Allen's offering plates over here to my left. [00:05:10] Speaker A: Amen. Amen. [00:05:12] Speaker B: Well, Daniel, those of us in the RFP fam, you are no stranger to the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast family, especially on the Facebook group, which. There's a lot of people on that group that don't even know we're a podcast. They're just in the group. And there's a lot of moles in there, too. Hey, y' all. But I would love for you to just introduce yourself to the RFP fam that aren't on that Facebook group that don't know who you are. Tell us your story. [00:05:38] Speaker A: Absolutely. So my thing is, you know, I love the people RFP fam in the Facebook group or not. People, you know, that have left legalism and are kind of trying to figure out where they fit in. I kind of had to figure out where I fit in over the years, I guess, just to go back to the beginning, I got into the IFB the old fashioned way. I was born into it. My dad, I was a pk. My dad was an IFB pastor. And my. Actually both of my grandparents on both sides were Baptist preachers at one point or the other. So third generation. And then growing up in that. At some point, you know, I do want to say, I think everybody would have sort of a similar story. The one good thing about the IFB is they teach you, you know, very strongly how to find Christ as your savior and a true love for the scripture. And I do appreciate those things. My parents both very much instilled that in me, and I was able to get saved at a young age because of the strong evangelistic message that we heard all of the time. [00:06:49] Speaker B: Right. [00:06:50] Speaker A: At some point, my dad, I guess, started going to pastor school at First Baptist Hammond and the soul winning clinics at Longview Baptist Temple. And we sort of started gravitating towards, I guess, the more extreme isles branch of the IFB would be what I grew up in. And then I'll tell you a story that we'll kind of come back to later. But when I was about 11 or 12, we went to pastor school in Hammond, and Jack Howes was preaching, and he had Curtis Hudson's chair. Curtis Hudson had passed away years before, and he was preaching, who. Who's going to fill this chair? And he was naming all these people who had passed away and was saying, who's going to come up and fill this chair? And I remember sitting there with my head bowed, my eyes closed, and I kind of peeked over down the aisle, and everybody in my church was looking at me. So I. I closed my eyes again and I was like, well, maybe they'll go away. But eventually I. I kind of, you know, I don't know. I want to say Maybe I confused peer pressure with Holy Spirit guidance, but I. I wanted to go up there and stand on that platform with the hundreds of other people that did. So that's exactly what I did. I have a photo of me back in the day sitting in Curtis Hudson's chair. [00:08:15] Speaker B: The thrill. [00:08:17] Speaker A: The throne. Absolutely. So then, of course, the next. The next thing for me as I grew up and graduated was obviously to go to Bible college unaccredited, if you listen to a couple of episodes back. So I. I went to Texas Baptist College first. And actually, I'm not gonna lie, as strict as it was, I was completely bought in. So I kind of had a great time and embraced the craziness, but I just could not afford it. So I eventually got financially withdrawn and. And went back home with my tail tucked between my legs and then found a smaller school in Mesquite, Texas, and moved there, still trying to figure everything out. And I guess that sort of. That's sort of where things started to unravel for me is I. I kept getting in trouble, and there was a couple of guys that were over the college that I guess they were kind of new and they were trying to impress the people that were above them as well. And the demerit started coming and the trouble didn't stop. And then unfortunately. Well, I'll say fortunately. Unfortunately, I guess for them, I. I met my now wife and we started trying to date or court. Sorry, courting. [00:09:38] Speaker B: Yes. [00:09:39] Speaker A: And so as we went down that road, it just felt like there was. There were more and more moving goal posts. And I've got a ton of stories of just crazy stuff that happened. But what happened is that legalism. I started getting bitter and started. Started kind of, you know, my heart. My heart got hard and, you know, I got angry and kind of turned inward on a lot of things. And I guess that's sort of. I guess that's sort of where my story kind of starts to end. [00:10:09] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, Daniel, one of the things that I've. I've loved over the last few months is how you've been sharing on TikTok, just your story kind of sitting out by the fire and just laying it out there. You know, Grace for a lot of us, in. In certain ways looks different. You know, I. I think all of us grew up in a very similar background. I mean, your story, when you're sitting here telling it, I'm like, man, I've heard this a bunch of times from a lot of our guests. It's very similar to my story. And one of the things that gets messed up in our stories, especially when we're deep in legalism, is grace. It's not preached grace, defined is unmerited favor. It's the kindness and the mercy of God. It's not earned, it's not achieved. No amount of work, sacrifice, or standard gets you more of it. No demerit, no failure, no shame. It erases it. Right? It's just there. Let me say that again for those that are in the back. You can't earn more of God's grace, and you can't lose it by being less than perfect. You know, I hear a lot of people that come on here over the last 196 episodes, and a lot of our stories are, I was trying to earn God's favor. I was trying to do and do and do. We should absolutely obey God. But God made it clear that he wants us to follow him out of obedience, not out of. Because we have to, because it's rule and law. What does he tell us in Matthew, in the King James? What does he say? He says, you shall love the Lord thy God with all your heart, your soul, your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. The second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. You know, Daniel, your story is raw. There are so many elements of your story that you haven't gotten into or will get into on this episode. It's real. It's a journey from trauma to tight rules, into healing and hope. And I want you to talk a little bit about how you left a system behind that preached perfection, but how you found belonging on the other side of legalism, which is the title of this episode. What do you think was your turning point? [00:12:15] Speaker A: So for me, my turning point kind of happened in three, well, you can say four stages. The first stage was completely bought in. You know, I. I have a hard time condemning a lot of people because I wasn't just caught in legalism. I was a legalist. I was, you know, I. I looked at people that left the church the same way that they looked at me when I left. So I'm. I'm just as guilty of. Of legalism as anybody. [00:12:42] Speaker B: Sure. [00:12:42] Speaker A: But then the next step for me was I started thinking, well, the, the rules and the legalism that's here. The system's not the problem. I'm the problem. So what I tried to do at that point is do more go, you know, read my Bible more go soul anymore, just performance based, trying to earn my place in this system. And I mean, that's just like being a hamster on a wheel. You're never going to get anywhere. You're just going to get exhausted and wear yourself out. Because I didn't need God's help to polish my shoes or tie my tie a little straighter. You know, I knew how to do all that, so I just did as much as I could. But then I went from that stage to, the problem isn't the system. The problem is my authority, where I'm at, manipulating that system against me. So I started thinking that, well, the system is good. These standards are all good, but the place that I'm at is trying to use those rules to control me and manipulate me. [00:13:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:48] Speaker A: So what I did, honestly, not a lot of people may know this, but I actually started meeting after some things happened. I actually went and started meeting with a pastor across town of another IFB church. And I was going to leave our IFB church and make the comfortable move to the IFB sister church. But they didn't really get along across town. So I had several meetings with that guy in his office, and we were kind of. He was telling me, yeah, you just need to come on over here. And I knew that they were networked, but something happened. And I won't go into the dark details. You know, you can Google it if you want to. But before I could make it to that church, this pastor got caught in very egregious criminal activity and ended his life in jail before anybody could even get to him. So at that point, I'm fractured because I was like, here's the safe place to go to. And all of a sudden it's gone. You know, it's. It just took another layer off. And that's when I started questioning. Well, maybe. Maybe it's not the place I'm at, and these people that are. I'm surrounded with, maybe there's something wrong with this. Trying to earn God's grace through performance. The next big thing that happened in my life was kind of. I guess it was kind of twofold within a very short amount of time. At this point, I'm married. I've been married for a few years. My daughter was already born. She was, you know, three or four years old. And what happened is the church welcomed back a known offender into the church and basically gave him free run. He, you know, he could go anywhere. I actually. It actually scared me so bad. I looked up online to see if there were any restrictions or anything I could do, but there. There wasn't. And, I mean, they would. He would be out shaking hands. Was he an official greeter? Probably not, but the kids don't know that. [00:15:53] Speaker B: Sure. [00:15:54] Speaker A: His wife had received an award, and they had him come up on the platform to receive the award with her. And in my head, I'm going, hey, this guy's up there. Yes, he's got a suit and tie on, but all these kids don't know to be cautious around this person. I thought more people knew about it than knew about it, but that. That wasn't the case. I found out later. But about. About that same time, my daughter came home from Sunday school one Sunday, and she was upset. And she had been trying to. You know, they have these campaigns they run for, you know, weeks at a time, and you can win stuff, you know, win a Bible, win this. Well, she was upset because she didn't win anything. And I. I was kind of confused because we were faithful. We were there every service. So I knew it wasn't because she missed a church service. She took her Bible with her, you know, she was there, and she bought. [00:16:51] Speaker B: A brick to put in the bucket. [00:16:52] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:16:53] Speaker B: You know what I'm talking about. [00:16:55] Speaker A: Absolutely. You got to make the heaviest. Yep. You bring the coins. But the reason. The reason she didn't win was because the teacher said that her dress was too short. [00:17:06] Speaker B: Goodness. [00:17:07] Speaker A: At three or four years old. To me, if it had happened years apart, it might not have clicked. But it happened so close together. [00:17:16] Speaker B: Yes. [00:17:16] Speaker A: And then around the same time, we had a conference where we had some preachers come in to preach. And I sat in a service, and I heard Hamblin preach that Christians don't go to the movie house, and you're not a good Christian if you're down at the movie house. But the very next sermon, Bob Gray senior was preaching, and through choked tears and, you know, could barely speak, he was asking, if Dave Hiles walked in the back door, would you be Christian enough to ask him to sit with you? If, of course, he was still in prison. But if Jack Scott walked in that back door, you know, would you have enough? Would you ask him to sit with you? And all these things in my head, I just. The scales fell off my eyes. I was like, you know, there's. We are straining at gnats and swallowing camels. Here we are. Which is what legalism is, in my opinion. It's not having rules. It's not having systems. I mean, everybody has rules and systems and standards of some sort in their life. But it's. It's literally straining at the smallest thing. How somebody's dressed or how they're performing, and then you just erase and don't worry about, you know, all the other things going on behind the scenes. [00:18:37] Speaker B: Yeah, it's kind of like this clip that I seen today. [00:18:44] Speaker C: I can tell which way you're gonna fall by, which direction you in. [00:18:47] Speaker B: Hey, me brother. [00:18:47] Speaker A: It's good. [00:18:48] Speaker C: I'll tell you what, you want to know how I know you're gonna fall? You start getting edgy. [00:18:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:54] Speaker C: Be careful. Young people, old people, everybody between people, be careful when you start getting edgy. [00:19:01] Speaker B: Yes. [00:19:02] Speaker C: I watch people's lives. They start getting edgy in their music. [00:19:05] Speaker A: Right? [00:19:06] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:06] Speaker C: I can tell when a church is about to fall away. [00:19:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:09] Speaker C: You know how you can tell? You can watch a church and see where they're fixing to fall to. Say, what do you watch when you watch them? Listen to their music. Listen. [00:19:18] Speaker B: Just watch. [00:19:18] Speaker C: Just watch and listen to their music. If it starts looking more like an r B, hip hop show, if it starts looking more like a rock and roll group, if it starts looking more like some flesh dance going on, you mark us down. They fall in the wrong direction. Be careful when you start getting edgy in your music. Be careful when you start getting edgy in your friends. Have you ever noticed? Have you ever noticed? Have you ever noticed the kids that want to live for God and sure enough want to serve Jesus? They'll find the other kids in the church to walk. But have you ever noticed the ones that want to stay on the edge and they want to get just as edgy as they can, they still come to church, but some they just as edgy and carnal as they can you see how you know they're edgy and carnal? Look at their Instagram, look at Facebook, look at their Twitter. You say that stalking. [00:20:02] Speaker A: Stalking. [00:20:03] Speaker C: And it's stalking. Hear God, a person in a cave in Afghanistan had my B. Sometimes I honest to God, wondering somebody also God, wonder if people that come to our churches know we can see you. Do some of y' all understand? Do some of y' all. Y' all not having us to understand that junk you posted on social media. [00:20:28] Speaker A: You friends with them? [00:20:30] Speaker C: They said, right, that's it. I mean, come on, let's just cut it right, right, Right where it is. I mean, if Sunday morning after revival's over with, if Sunday morning the preacher walked up in here and we said, okay, we're going to start, we're going to post everything that you have posted on your social media on that screen for the last week and a half, we gonna Post it up. The stuff you've been posting about the music you listen to, the stuff you've been doing, we're gonna post it all up there. I mean, could you stand up and say, that's right. Amen, preacher. That's me, or would you be dubbing your hand saying, oh, dear. [00:20:59] Speaker B: Oh, good old Cody, man, what. What a clip right there. That. That just happened. You know, Daniel, the system is broken. The system does burn people out. It is a system inside that I don't think anybody can put their finger on exactly what it is. But, you know, if you're not following it because they let you know. I mean, for your daughter not to be able to get the prize because at four years old, her skirt was too short. That is. That's a system. A screwed up, disgusting system. And you said something a minute ago that reminded me of a story. How we are, you know, constantly. It's like the hamster on the wheel, and we just continue to do the same thing, hoping for a different result. When I was in college, we had a guy by the name of Jim that had a hamster. It was the dumbest hamster I've ever seen in my life. The hamster's name was Goliath, by the way. And Goliath would get on the outside of the wheel, and he would run on the outside of the wheel, and then every so often, he would grab a hold of it and slam down on the other side. And we would watch that hamster for hours. I was like, man, you've got the dumbest hamster I've ever seen in my life. But that's really what the system does for those of us that are in it. We are spinning our wheels. We are constantly trying to perform. There is a finish line that's never achievable. There's a system that we can never, like, win because the goalpost keeps moving, if you will. And we're constantly finding ourselves to please more people and to do more things and to look more holy and to be more spiritual, just to hopefully not be looking like we're outside of the system. Does that make sense, what I'm saying there? [00:22:40] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. I've been that hamster. I've got the. I've got the knots on my head to prove. [00:22:46] Speaker B: Exactly. I feel like so many times we have. We've done this, and it's like, that's when. When we talk about embracing grace, leaving legalism behind, that's the biggest thing. It's like we're getting off of the wheel and Finding there's a whole new area of life that we can walk in. Daniel, I'm interested. What, what was it that got y' all to the point of leaving, of stepping away from this system? [00:23:11] Speaker A: So at that point, after all that stuff happened, in a short amount of time, you know, the door closed, leaving to go to another church. I was just. I was praying like I have never prayed before. I was reading the New Testament, trying to find answers. I read the New Testament through like 5 times in like 2 months. Just asking God, God, I don't know what I'm doing. You need to show me what you want here, because I'm lost. And you know, it's funny thing, when you, when you read the Bible that many times through in a row and you're. You're searching for answers, you know, you stumble across Galatians. Yeah, you. You stumble across. When I read Colossians 2, I was like, oh, my good. If you, if you don't know Colossians 2, after this podcast, open your Bible and read it. Because that was reading my mail. I mean, it was a description of everything I was in. And I just. I was laying in my bed one night with all these thoughts in my head, and I was confused and lost. And I found out that night why they tell you not to listen to worship music that's not church approved. Because this song that's maybe. I don't know, it may be kind of cringy, but the. The words to it were. So you thought you had to keep this up, all the works that you do. So we think that you're good and you can't believe it's not enough. And then it talks about just letting your walls fall down and just going to Christ and. Sorry, I'm getting choked up. It just broke me. And I told God that night, I don't know where I'm going. I'm walking into the wilderness. Because all the other churches are liberal and all the other churches read different versions of the Bible, but I'm walking into the wilderness not knowing where I'm going, but I know it ain't here. [00:25:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:08] Speaker A: And we dropped my daughter off for a vacation Bible school at another church, another IFB church, and me and my wife, I didn't want to talk to her about it. She wasn't against it. She had no idea what was coming. We had some discussions long term, but I don't think she knew the point that I was at yet. And we went and we sat in a parking lot of a park and we had coffee And I just told her, we've got to go. Like, yeah, we've got to go. Not to another sister church, not to another, you know, affiliate or another city or another town. Like, we've got to follow Christ. [00:25:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:52] Speaker A: And I don't know where he's taking us, but we're following Him. And are, you know, are you with me? And we knew the difficult discussions we were going to have to have. [00:26:04] Speaker B: Sure. [00:26:04] Speaker A: We knew the relationships that we were going to lose, but it didn't matter. I was. [00:26:10] Speaker B: We. [00:26:10] Speaker A: We decided that night we were going to follow. Follow God. It. We decided what we were going to do is at the top of the year, the new year, we were going to let them know we were leaving. And unless God changed something in four months, that was it. And he didn't change anything. [00:26:28] Speaker B: Sure. So talk. Let's talk about the other side, because the title of this episode is Leaving Brought Belonging. I know there's a lot of people. I know when I was in there, and I even set it up at the top. You know, there's a cost to leaving legalism. You lose your seat at the table. There are some events and revivals and churches and places that your boy ain't ever getting invited back to. That hurt me for a long time. Now I'm thinking, God, I'm never getting invited back to those things. You lose your approval, man. I'll be honest. We seek approval from people. That system teaches us to live for their approval. Here we are, 25 years later. I literally could care less what they think about me. Has that been proven yet? I hope so. You know, you lose your version. This is the biggest one that I think was the hardest to overcome. You lose the version of yourself that you were told was the only way to please God. And it's difficult. But I want us to hit on Daniel. I'd love to hear the other side of that, how leaving brought belonging. Because there is that fear I'm never going to make friends. There's family that won't talk to me. Listen, I don't know if I've ever thrown this out there, but I have a family member that is on staff at Crown College. You want to talk about awkward. When I see him at family reunions and things like that, we're bipolar opposites. You know, it's kind of. Kind of exciting. There are family, there are friends. There's things that, when I left, especially when we started this podcast, that people who were acquaintances, or friends, if you will, they're only friends on social media, are literal Enemies now. And I was like, wow, I didn't expect that to happen. That almost, in a way, paralyzes some people to just stay. I'd love to hear the other side of this, how leaving brought belonging for y' all. [00:28:19] Speaker A: Let me tell you when. If you're in this boat and you're on the precipice of figuring out, you know, you're like, I know this system doesn't work for me, but I don't know where I'm going. And, you know, you don't have a plan yet. If you step out and you follow Christ, he's going to lead you to exactly where you need to be. We. There was no RFP yet when. When we left. You know, I didn't know other people did this. So when we left, we just sort of started going to a couple of churches and trying to figure out where we fit in. But, you know, God has a way of pulling you where you need to go. And we walked. We went to what was called the liberal church across town that used to be like us, but they weren't like us anymore. And they got edgy. Absolutely. And they even had drums on the stage, you know, so listen, I. [00:29:15] Speaker B: Not to break you, I remember the first time Tennessee Temple did a drum set on stage. Mr. Gorman, he was a math teacher, played drums at our Christmas chapel. And we thought it was the greatest thing ever. Sorry, that was free. [00:29:28] Speaker A: No, you're good. So we. We went to the church across town. It was actually quite a drive. We sat in the church service. You know, I showed up in a suit and tie and Ashley in a dress down to her ankles, and, you know, we almost stood out like a sore thumb. [00:29:45] Speaker B: Right. [00:29:46] Speaker A: But we were there. And of course, my memory just goes to the music that they played when we were there, because everything meant something when we were hurting that bad. And they played that song, what if His Mercy Comes through teardrops. [00:30:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:02] Speaker A: And Ashley cried the whole time. And then. Then afterwards, the pastor came up to us and he said, hey, where are you guys from? [00:30:14] Speaker B: You know, you must be visitors, right? [00:30:17] Speaker A: So I just told him. I said, well, you know, this is the first time we visited. I said, well, we're from a church that, you know, is a little more conservative and a little, you know, a little different. He said, let's go to lunch. So we went to lunch and shout out Pastor Robbie Green. Yeah, Robbie Garland. He was telling me how he heard stories of people who had gotten in trouble and heard sermons preached against socks. Well, what he did, what he didn't know is I had gotten blasted in chapel because I forgot to change my work socks. So I had white ankle socks. And the guy actually came down off the platform and lifted my pants legs up and said, no, no. So for him to say that was an aha moment for me. And then. So going there, that journey, going to Lavon Drive, and then that journey from meeting Robbie Green leads to the next thing. There was. My friend shared a little blue icon on Facebook, and it said, coming soon, the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. [00:31:30] Speaker B: Oh. [00:31:31] Speaker A: And I said, I don't know what this is, but I'm fixing to find out. So I listened to. I listened to the first several episodes and actually interfaced with y' all on Facebook a little bit, just trying to figure out what was all about. As soon as I heard the intro from the first episode, I was like, oh, these are my people right here. So then there's a church that did a big conference. They don't do it anymore, but there was a church. There was a church that did a big conference in Las Vegas. And our church was going there. They went every year. And then, oh, you know, the recovery fundamentalists are going to be there. And it just happened to be the same conference our church was going to. So we. We bought tickets and flew up there. And that was my intro to the rfp. [00:32:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I remember we met y' all in the lobby. You two were just standing right over there. You were one of the first people that walked up and talk to me when I walked in. [00:32:26] Speaker A: I'm going to tell you something that you don't know, and that is, we knew nothing about Vegas. So when you guys said you were staying at the Flamingo Hotel, okay. So I assumed it was close to the church, so I booked it. So it was during COVID the height of COVID Everything was empty. I came down in the lobby, and we were wandering around, and I saw you in the lobby with your mask on. And I stopped, and I was like, should I say something to him? I think that's the guy from the rfp. Then all of a sudden, it hit me. What if I'm the only one that flew out here from Texas and nobody else is here? I'm going to look like a stalker. [00:33:05] Speaker B: I was at the Crab Stable, too. That is funny. Oh, man. I remember you walked up. We were there at Josh Tice's church. Shout out. And walked up and said, hey, I'm Daniel Win. I was like, hey, Daniel, how are you? And, man, just the conversation we had. We went to lunch after that. And I was like, guys, did y' all meet Daniel when they're like, yeah, that dude's awesome. And I believe we all went out and out to eat the next night or something like that. Didn't you go with us the next night to eat? [00:33:34] Speaker A: No. [00:33:35] Speaker B: Oh, sorry. [00:33:36] Speaker A: I got left. [00:33:39] Speaker B: You were just talking to send the flamingo. [00:33:42] Speaker A: The trumpet called, and I got left behind. [00:33:46] Speaker B: Oh, goodness. You know, I love hearing stories like this because literally yesterday I was at a coffee shop here in Ringgold, and a guy walked in. I'm just sitting at the table working. He walks by and looks at me and points, and I didn't think anything about it. He came back, he said, man, I need to thank you. I was like, all right. He said, your podcast has helped me more than anything in my life. And I was like, wow, that's awesome. Never met this guy. He said he lives three hours away. He's coming through town, and he just happened to stop at the caffeine addicts that I'm sitting at in Ringgold. And he's like, you know, I got off, and I was like, it'd be really cool to run into JC Here, because I'm in Ringgold, and I never go to that coffee shop. And he was like, God just. There's no coincidences. This is how God works. And I love hearing those stories. And again, you know, write in. Share my [email protected] no. Share my story. Recovering. I don't know what it is. It's on the website. Go to recoveringfundamentalist.org and click on the Share My Story tab. You know, Daniel, as we're wrapping this up, I love your story. I want to hear how have you. So from that point on, obviously, from Vegas, you have. You've become a moderator on the. On the group page. There's, you know, when you think of the meetups, when you think of the RFP fam. Daniel Nguyen is just a face that I think of. You know, you kind of. You help us lead the page and keep. Keep it from being too crazy. That's. That's a whole nother level of crazy when you're trying to moderate a page. How have you. All of these years later, how do you feel y' all are doing with belonging with where you're at in your relationship with Jesus? [00:35:23] Speaker A: My. The biggest thing I can say is, as far as belonging and as far as. Especially people who are leaving legalism, I'm just amazed sometimes at the people that I have the opportunity to cross paths with. It never Ceases to amaze me. The reason why I love the Facebook page so much. After we left that event in Las Vegas, I mean, my heart was just so full that I typed a long Facebook post because I felt like I had found my people. You know, not just the RFP itself, but this whole. That auditorium was full of people who were broken and who are still following Jesus. And it just overwhelmed me. So I typed that long thing and shared it, and then instantly, I started getting feedback, and it was people telling me that they could relate with this or they were searching for how to put this into words and just coming across those people on a regular basis. I mean, there's just so many stories. I can't even. Yeah, think of them all of people who. I mean, I. I'm just. I just try to encourage people. I'm not. I'm not a pastor. I'm not a book writer. I'm not. You know, I. I kill bugs for a living on the side. But, you know, just. If I can just encourage somebody that, hey, you know, it's gonna be okay. You know, I just want to be the guy that I. I had a few people there waiting for me when I came out the other side. I just want to be one of those guys that are on the other side that says, hey, you know, you've got this. God's got this. Yeah, it's gonna be okay. [00:37:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I loved it just this week, seeing James and Brett, you know, they. They're there in. In Dallas for the convention, and, you know, just the community that has been built out of a podcast. You know, I. I think that's. That's something I try to tell people. A lot of times, I'm like, the podcast is more than just us. Brian and Nathan and I talking into a microphone. And, you know, now me just sitting here talking with guests. Like, the podcast is a movement, and it is a family. And, you know, the meetups that we did, I don't know if you were ever part of the meetup. Did you come to Statesboro? Did y' all come down? [00:37:43] Speaker A: I did not go. [00:37:44] Speaker B: So. The very first meetup in Statesboro was absolutely incredible. I mean, it was. It was one of my favorites. And just we sat in that little bitty chapel, and literally, what you're sharing right here on this episode today, we sat for two or three or four hours and just listened to stories of people that were stuck, that had no hope, that literally felt alone, and how God has brought them out of that and brought around family. And literally, for the first time. Many of them were sitting in a room singing praise and worship, listening to a teaching with community, and they're sharing their story. And it was beautiful. I was like, this is exactly why we started this podcast and the stories that we've heard over the years. It's literally the other side of this. I believe life is not meant to be lived alone. It's best in the context of community. And I love that God had it planned all along for this RFP famous all of us to have these shared similar backgrounds. But here we are, six years later, almost 200 episodes later, we're talking, and you're still finding help and hope. I got people literally this week that have messaged me like, hey, I'm on episode four and I'm still stuck, but you're helping me. And I'm like, man, I don't even remember what we said on episode four. But I'm glad it's there. I had a guy call me today, ticked off. I mean, a voicemail. If I could play on here. This dude, I don't know who this guy is, but I got to block him somehow because it's. This guy is not excited. Whatever episode 13 is. And whatever I said on episode 13, he is not happy about. I'm like, I may need to go in and delete episode 13 because something I said got this guy ticked off. But this is the family. And here's what I want you to understand, those of you that are listening is realize that when God calls you out of legalism, it's because he not only saved your soul, but he wants to save your life. Even if you left in a traumatic way or you got kicked out, you don't have to be miserable. You don't have to live in fear. John, chapter 10. And verse 10 says, the thief has come to steal and to kill and destroy. He's come to steal your joy. There's a big difference in joy and happiness, and he wants to steal your joy. And I'll be honest, a lot of times when we're stuck in legalism, when you're getting yelled at for wearing white socks, when you're getting demerits because your sideburns are too low on your head, like, what is this? You know, there's just no joy. It can feel forced and fake, but there's no joy. And Satan wants to steal your joy. He wants to kill your witness. He wants to destroy your life. But that verse doesn't end there. It goes on to say, but I have come. Jesus came that you can have real and eternal life, or as the King James Version says, life more abundantly. And the life that we have found in Jesus embracing grace brings us that life more abundantly. Daniel, as we wrap up, what would you say to those that are listening here that are the Daniel wins. They're still stuck. They're listening to the RFP in secret. If anybody finds out that they're listening to the rfp, they're going to get shunned, they're going to get kicked out, or worse. What would you say to that person? And then also what would you say to the person that has recently left or is on the verge of leaving and they just need that encouragement to find belonging on the other side. What would you say to them? [00:41:07] Speaker A: The first of all, you know what you just said, Jesus breaks chains. He breaks chains of sin and he can break chains of legalism. It's, you know, breaking us out of bondage is kind of his thing. And if you will trust him and you will get in the scriptures and you will find out that a lot of these things that we've been told are top tier importance aren't even in there. Or you've got to find a concordance or a dictionary and go three definitions deep to even find something that even relates to what they're saying. And you just find out that, hey, Jesus tells you, first of all, love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy mind. And then the next commandment he says is love your neighbor as yourself. You know, he didn't go too far into dress standards there. He didn't go too far into, you know, all the different things that we constantly have thrown on us. I mean, legalism to me comes from a good place originally, right? Adam and Eve, they fell, they felt shame and what's the first thing they did? Looked around and found modesty. Standards, you know, instead of just turning to Jesus and just going and following him where he's leading them. If you will follow Jesus, I'm not saying leave your church tomorrow, but if you will just turn your heart and just decide, I'm going to follow you wherever you live, lead me, even if I don't know what the next step is. He's got, he's got you. He's going to lead you to the people and the places that you need to go. The other thing is, once you get, you know, once you get out of, out of legalism, you're going to feel alone. You're going to feel like nobody gets it. You're going to feel like Nobody understands your story. But again, God's going to bring those people across your path. You're going to walk in the church that you never wanted to go to and there's going to be somebody there with a similar story. Or if you, you know, get on Facebook, there's people on there that will encourage you. And I mean I, I've gotten a lot of advice off of the, even the Facebook groups. I had somebody. So one of the things in my story I said I was going to come back to was, you know, surrendering to preach in full time ministry at age 11 or 12. And then here I am in my late 30s out of the IFB. My college degree or my college time that I spent there is worth nothing. And you know, I sort of lost my identity a little bit. And I just kind of said, hey, does anybody else suffer from guilt of not being in the ministry? Like I have Jonah syndrome. You know, I'm not running from God, but I feel like, hey, like I'm not, I'm not doing what I stood up as an 11 year old boy with all my wisdom and said I was going to do for a full time living. And you know, somebody had had commented, hey, you know, your ministry is your family. Your first, your first ministry is to provide for the people that God has given you and to lead them spiritually and to take care of them and whatever secular job you're in. Maybe you wanted to be a pastor, maybe you wanted to be a missionary or a tele evangelist and that just hasn't worked out. You know, whatever God has you doing, he's ordained that. And that is your ministry. You know, your ministry may be getting online to a little Facebook group and telling people, hey, it's going to be okay, man. Like you're going to be fine. You know, that's good. [00:44:54] Speaker B: Well, Daniel, I do thank you for moderating our little Facebook group and keeping that in check. And I love y' all's story. I also love just if they listen a couple episodes ago how your wife is getting ready to graduate. I saw on her Facebook story today that she just got her gown and cap in, so props. She made it. Congratulations, Ms. Win. Daniel, thank you for being here with us today, man, and sharing your story. You are RFP fam and I feel like your story is going to help a lot of people. Thanks for being here. [00:45:26] Speaker A: Thank you very much. [00:45:27] Speaker B: Listen, friends, you don't have to keep pretending. You don't have to carry the weight of performing for God who already loves you. Legalism tells you that you that belonging comes through obedience to man made rules and ideology. But the Gospel says belonging comes through through Jesus. And Daniel Winn's story is proof that grace isn't just doctrine, it's a doorway. And on the other side of that door is healing and family and purpose and freedom. So if you're listening today, you feel like you're barely holding on. Hear this. You are seen, you are loved. You are not alone. And you don't have to earn your way into God's presence. Jesus already opened that way up for you. Hey, thanks for listening to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. If this episode has spoken into your heart, share it with someone who needs some hope. And remember, walking away from legalism might feel like losing everything, but sometimes leaving is how you finally find where you belong. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. Love you kids.