[00:00:00] Speaker A: You are listening to the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast, where faith and real life collide in a world full of noise, division and debate. We're here to cut through the clutter with honest conversations, bold truth and a whole lot of grace. Whether you're questioning, growing, or just trying to make sense of it all, you've got a seat at the table. Let's join JC Groves for today's episode.
Let's go.
The Recovering Fundamentalist podcast starts in three.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: You know what makes women stupid is.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: Colin Jesus was not a bartender.
You have lost your mind. Long tongue. Heifers have given me a lot more trouble than heifers wearing britches. And you know that. Say amen right there. 1. Let me tell you something, bozo. They'll be selling Frosties in hell for this. Boy puts on a pair of pink underwear there.
[00:01:04] Speaker B: Amen.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: I sucked my thumb till I was 14 years of age.
Let me just say this right now.
[00:02:01] Speaker C: There I stood in the ruin of the life I built on sand.
I was born in a prison made of all the lost demands. You said not to ask questions and I had to know why.
You said God would be angry.
Turns out that was a lie.
You said she is a wild one.
She may run from the faith, clip her wings, keep her quiet, lock her up in a cage.
I tried hard to appease you.
It was never enough.
Till one day I said preacher, I'm calling, calling your love you call, called it a church but you put me through hell till I was a shell of the person God made me to be.
I needed a shepherd cuz I was a lamb. But you were the wolf who chose to prey on me.
What do you want from me?
I didn't find God in a church pew.
He rose from the grave of your lies.
Lies I believed for a lifetime abuse in a clever disguise.
God raised me from dust and from ashes he set me free from my cage.
Iron bars that held me for 20 long years in the distance they faded away.
[00:04:52] Speaker B: Why preacher, why?
[00:04:53] Speaker C: Why'd you tell me those lies?
[00:04:56] Speaker B: Was it all worth it? Did you get a prize when you.
[00:05:01] Speaker C: Took his name and fade? Did you think it was a game? I followed you and watched my life go up in FL blood Preacher, listen to my warning.
Preacher, heed my cautious words.
I've forgiven you for all you've done for causing all this hurt.
And now I urge you to repent for vengeance is the Lord's.
But as for me, I'm flying free.
I'm bound by you no more.
[00:06:20] Speaker A: Everybody, welcome back to the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast episode number 195, the show where we help you detox from legalism without giving up your faith, your sanity, or your cigars and caffeine. I'm your host, J.C. groves, and today, buckle up because our guest is about to break every unspoken rule you learned in youth groups or college. I'm just kidding. She's gonna do it with a guitar, a punchline, and probably a crazy good Instagram reel. Of course, the song that you just heard is called Preacher by our guest, Christiana Miller. She's a singer, a songwriter, a comedian, a social media influencer. Basically, if she were an old IFB church, she'd be everything the ladies Bible study warned you about. Here's the deal with her though. She isn't just funny, she also is wise. And her message Just be normal, bro.
That's right. You don't have to wear culottes to be holy. You don't have to burn your secular CDs. You don't have to go into full deconstruction mode or stay stuck in spiritual trauma. You can follow Jesus and be a functioning human at the same time. Wild concept, I know. But Christiana Miller is going to give you some incredible tools today to live life to the fullest. So grab your coffee, grab your cigars, hide your CCM playlist from your pastor and get ready because we're talking about how to thrive after legalism with the one and only Christiana Miller.
But first, let's pay the bills. We want to thank some of our sponsors. Mission University In 1950, Mission University was founded with the mission of training Christ Following Leaders to tell the world about Jesus. The mission has remained the same through all these years and they continue today to teach, to train and prepare great leaders to make a difference with their life. Mission U educates, inspires and equips students to serve as effective Christian leaders. Find
[email protected]. if you were in the North Georgia Chattanooga, Tennessee area and you're looking for some great termite and Pest Solutions, call GPM Termite and Pest Solutions, 423517 Pest. That's P E S T. Tell them JC at the recovering Fundamentalist Podcast sent you. Hey, I've partnered with Tyndale Publishers and we're going to be giving away that NLT Premium Bible on Father's Day. Head on over to our social media, Facebook, Instagram and Twitter and get signed up today. I want to thank our patrons of Patreon, Clint and Bryce, Kenneth, Adam, John and Kathy Groves. Brett Martin of the 4Freedom podcast, Daniel Nguyen Toby Tyler and Jonathan Clemons, thank you so much for supporting and sponsoring the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. If you would like to help out, head on over to patreon.com recovering fundamentalist podcast jc today we have a special guest with us, Christiana Miller. She came across my Instagram feed a few years ago and I have absolutely enjoyed watching her content and she's really helping a lot of people out. She's got a great following, a great message, and when I reached out to her, I said, hey, what, what would you like to title our conversation? She said, how about just be normal, bro? I was like, that is a great topic for us here, recovering from Fundamentalism. So, Christiana, welcome to finally the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast.
[00:09:43] Speaker B: Thank you so much. It's great to be here.
[00:09:45] Speaker A: Well, tell us a little bit about yourself. I know you have a large following on Instagram, but there's a lot of people that may not know who you are. Tell us about who you are, what you do, where you're from, and we'll jump into this episode after that.
[00:09:58] Speaker B: Yep. Well, I am just a girl in the Midwest right now, but I used to be almost the My mom was kind of a celebrity in the ifb. So if you know who Abigail Miller is, that's my mom. And she wrote a lot of songs that are still being used in the IFB today.
Which I Can Go in is her most well known song. Everyone's heard that in ifb. There's a bunch of covers of it.
[00:10:22] Speaker A: So I give us a few of them.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: So a few of her songs? Yeah, so she wrote one called Turn the Tide, which was like a kind of nationalist anthem. And then we did I Can Go in was her number one hit. But we've got like eight albums out there. They're still out there, all our music. So I grew up in a big family. We traveled the US Full time for almost eight years. We lived in a tour bus and we would sing in about 100 churches every year. And so that was my experience, experience in the ifb, because it was all IFB churches except for the occasional Presbyterian church, after which my dad would say, don't tell anybody we went there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, it was a great experience overall, getting to see the U.S. with my, my 10 siblings. And now I am in, I've settled down and. Well, not really, but I'm, you know, doing my own thing now. I left the IFB after 20 years and my whole family is out now. That's a question I get all the time. Family is Out. But yeah.
[00:11:23] Speaker A: So traveling family, singing in IFB churches. 10 kids. Where are you in the 10 kids?
[00:11:29] Speaker B: I am number two. I'm the oldest daughter.
[00:11:32] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:11:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep.
[00:11:34] Speaker A: You were the.
What's that, what's that show? 19 Kids and Counting. What's their last name?
[00:11:42] Speaker B: Yes. The Duggars. The Duggars.
[00:11:44] Speaker A: Y' all were the Duggars before the Duggars were cool.
[00:11:46] Speaker B: Yeah, man.
[00:11:48] Speaker A: 10 kids. So you have seen camp meetings, revival services, church services. You've seen the whole gamut across the country.
[00:11:55] Speaker B: The whole nine yards, Every single thing you can imagine in ifb. I've seen it.
[00:12:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
Because I asked you earlier, you know, what kind of branch did you come out of in the ifb? And you said kind of all of them. And I didn't realize that y' all traveled on the road. How big was that bus?
[00:12:11] Speaker B: Yeah, so we lived. Well, first we traveled in a van. For a little while we lived in Prophets Chambers, you know, at different churches.
And then we upgraded to a 31 foot RV and we were all sleeping on the floor. And then after that we got a 36 foot RV and we were all sleeping on the floor and there was no air conditioning. And it was summer in Florida. We were traveling and that was crazy. And then when I was, I want to say 12 years old, we bought a 45 foot long teal green tour bus.
And it was massive. And everywhere we went, people just stared at us. And then you have this huge bus and then you open the door and nine or ten kids and people were just like, who are you? Like, are you the Partridge Family? Like, this is crazy.
They would say the Von Trapps. They would say the Duggars. Like, everyone just thought we were so cool. And so we traveled in that bus until I was 20 years old. So my whole teen years were living on that bus. And yeah, it was. It was an adventure for sure.
[00:13:10] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Now listen, I know that's crazy, but I'll be honest. I grew up on a tour bus. I traveled singing Southern gospel with a ton of groups. My wife, her family. My wife was former Amish. And so. But they had a group called the Yoder Family. They changed the name to Straight from the Heart. You can still find them on YouTube. It's terrible. But they had a purple bus. It was. I believe it was a former Silver Silver. I can't say Silver Silver Eagle bus is what they had. And they totally redid it. There was only four of them, five of them traveling on that. But I loved sleeping on a tour bus. There's something about getting in your bunk with that AC on low and just riding down the road. The last group I was with was called Three Bridges, and we rode from Seminole, Oklahoma, all the way back to Nashville. And Kaden, our firstborn, was. He was probably six months old. And we slept in the front and we were going to stop halfway, but they drove all night. And we got home because they had this little bitty baby screaming on there, so. Life on a tour bus is funny, but I can imagine with nine siblings, that got to be hectic.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: Yep. My two youngest siblings were born while we were on the road, so my two youngest brothers are 10 and 8 years old, and they were born both of them while we were on the road. But we. We did eventually upgrade to bunk beds, so we all had our own bunk beds. It's like sleeping in a coffin every night, you know?
[00:14:26] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, it is. You shut that door and you're in a coffin now. They weren't born on the bus.
[00:14:30] Speaker B: Were they not? No. We considered that for about 30 seconds and then my mom said, not happening. So we did. We would borrow people's houses. Yeah, they were both home birds.
[00:14:41] Speaker A: Yum. That's exciting. Yeah.
[00:14:43] Speaker B: Other people's homes.
[00:14:45] Speaker A: So. So now music, songwriting. You know, your Instagram has a lot of comedy in it. I love your Instagram. It pops up on my timeline all the time. Tell us a little bit about what you're doing, music wise. Songwriting, singing, you're performing all over.
[00:15:01] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's actually funny because my mom was a songwriter, and so when you're in that kind of environment, people always just assume that you're going to inherit all of the same gifts and same thing. But up until I was about 25 years old, I told everybody that I was not a songwriter. And that was my response all the time because I just had never really tried it. And so I was just like, not my thing. I don't do that. And then last year I really felt like I need to stop saying that and give it a fair shot and actually try. And it turns out that I am a songwriter. And so since then I've probably written 20 plus songs that I've got. So this year I am working on putting out an EP or an album of some sort. I'm releasing singles actually. Tonight I'm going to be in the studio again recording a new song.
[00:15:41] Speaker A: Awesome.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: So that's exciting. And I have just loved every second of that. And so it's been really cool to explore the musical side of that, aside from just being Being a sing singer, like, I've always been a singer. I've always loved performing and doing that sort of thing. But it's really fun to be able to actually write my own music and release my own music. And then aside from that, yeah, I do a lot of content creation, which has taken a little bit of a turn where it's more lighthearted now. It used to be, I'm sure you remember when I was posting more heavier content and a lot more like refuting fundamentalism. And I did that for a long time and then just recently have felt like I'm healed enough that I can take my content in another direction and help people to actually see what does it look like to have a normal life and not like, fixate on these things forever, you know? And I think that's really important to show people, like you don't have to live in that house that was built by the traumas you endured.
So that is something that's important to me. And then I also am doing a little bit of acting as well. So I just. I wear a few different hats and I love what I'm doing and my life is all over the place.
[00:16:45] Speaker A: I forgot about the acting. Didn't you just do a movie?
[00:16:48] Speaker B: I did. We did the first. The first phase of it was last summer. And then the second phase is going to be coming up here pretty soon, and we'll be finishing that. And that is actually the true story of Bruce Fry. I don't know if you have heard of Bruce Fry or know who he is. He's a singer. He was a country singer back in the 80s and 90s in Nashville. And so the film is based on his true life story, but he still is a singer. And now he does gospel music and he travels. And so it's the story of him and his brother. And yeah, I was able to be a part of that, and it was such a fun experience for me. And so I actually have a few other film gigs hopefully coming up here in the next several months.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: Fantastic.
Well, let's talk about legalism. Let's talk about life in it, because I think we're well aware that you have lived the full gamut of the IFB and traveling around, seeing the circles, and have definitely known people that have been in Legalism and have gotten out of it. Let me ask you this first question. Why do you feel the pressure is on people to swing from one extreme to the other after leaving Legalism?
[00:17:53] Speaker B: Well, I think when you come out of something that feels so wrong, there is that Natural knee jerk reaction to be like, if all of this is wrong, then all of this must be right. And then we ignore that. There is so much middle ground between those two places, you know? And so for me, when I was, I remember being a kid and hearing all the time about kids who left the IFB and they grew up in the young adults. They don't go to church anymore and they don't love Jesus anymore and they're off the deep end. They would always say that they've jumped off the deep end.
And then I grew up and I reconnected with those kids and I realized that they just started going to a different church, right? And I was like, wait, there's something not right about this. Because I was told that they all ran to the devil. And that's not usually what happened. In most cases, that's not what happened with me. I know there are people who probably think that I am just black sheep, you know, so. So that really challenged my thinking on that because I was like, there's so much middle ground that we can find and that I have found that doesn't have to be one end of the spectrum or another end of the spectrum. I think there's a lot to be found in the middle there. But I think, I think it's the same reason that someone who, let's say they came out of a really worldly lifestyle and they ran to something like ifb. It's like, why did they feel the need to go that extreme? Because it feels safe for them. Because having all of those boundaries and living kind of in a cage like that feels like this is safe, this is good. If I raise my kids like this, they weren't, they won't turn out like I was back then. And that in some ways is kind of how it was for my dad. He was not raised in a Christian home. He did not have a religious family in any sense really growing up. And so when he was raising us in IFB for him, that felt like this is the right thing because my kids won't turn out the way that I was.
Not realizing that this extreme was not really any better than this one. It was just different.
[00:19:45] Speaker A: That's real.
It's like when you leave one church that bands pants and three months later you're doing hot yoga with crystals. You're like, come on, there's got to be a middle road, right?
How do you actually live normal, thriving, like a normal thriving life outside of fundamentalism? How has that happened for you?
[00:20:03] Speaker B: Well, I think it comes from just Realizing that you can integrate faith into so many different parts of your life, but you don't have to be extreme about it in a way that you cut other people off because they don't think like you. I think for ifb, everyone who grew up in that knows, like we were. Not only were we like, we're set apart, it was we are not gonna hang out with people who aren't like us.
And unfortunately I learned how staunch they were about that when I stopped looking just like them. And I remember getting these emails from my friends and they were like, you're two faced and you're backward and you're leaving God and you tricked us and you're faking our relationships. And I was like, what are you talking about? Because to me, I was like, that is crazy. I thought we were connected because of our, our relationship with Jesus. And it turns out it was just because I was wearing denim skirts and so were they. Goodness, you know, and so for me, I. That really rocked my world and it made me realize that that's a really foolish way to live and also just not how Jesus lived.
[00:21:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:03] Speaker B: In any way. I'm like, Jesus was constantly around people with whom he disagreed and he was able to find common ground with them and reach them because he was willing to be there with them. He was sitting at tables that a lot of people in IFB would be flipping. And I think that that has been like so interesting for me because now I have a very diverse friend group of different Christians. Most of my friends are still Christians, but some of them are Anglican and some of them are Presbyterian and some of them are Methodist and some of them are Baptist and some of them are non denominational. And I'm like, we all find this common ground because of Jesus.
And yeah, we don't agree theologically on everything, sure, but we don't hate each other.
[00:21:43] Speaker A: Yeah, it's good. You know, that was one of the things that kind of shocked me. I knew to be prepared for it when we started this podcast. But I mean, we were out 17, almost 18 years when we started the podcast. Well, almost 20 years actually. And then we started doing the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. And it's crazy how one stepping back into it and reliving all of the legalism over again.
Sometimes I was, there have been some days over this last five years, I'm like, did we really need to do this? Because I mean, I was. There was things I haven't even thought about and then the same arguments and the stupidity of the pettiness of Just what you said. And one of the things that I really realized was how you're independent.
But there's such a fraternity in the ifb, and if you look like us and talk like us and shout like us, and it's interesting, I ask all of our guests, what camp did you come from? Because it's interesting. Whichever camp of the IFB that you're a part of, you look like you act like, you know, I mean, there's some that are more strict, there's others that are more shouters, there's some that are runners, there's others that sit and don't even clap after music, you know. And so it's interesting how. But when you hit the nail on the head, when you stopped wearing the denim skirts, they wanted nothing to do with you. You know, it's like our connection is not Jesus. Our connection is that we all look the same and we've drunk the Kool Aid of the cult that we're following and we have to do what they do and act like they do. And that's not, that's not freedom in Jesus. That's not grace. That's legalism to the max there. You've mentioned that recovering from legalism doesn't mean abandoning your faith. I want you to elaborate how you've seen people thrive in their spiritual lives while embracing a more balanced approach, or even you or your family. Because you said all of them are out now. How have y' all balanced that?
[00:23:30] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know what? Legalism, it kind of disguises itself as obedience and not kind of, it does disguise obedience to God. And so I remember growing up, I would always think, I'm doing all these things because I'm being obedient to God.
And then when I started actually being obedient to God, he was like, get out of that. Yeah, that, like, obedience is the. Is not legalism. It's. They're not the same and they cannot blend. Because when you are being obedient to God, you will not be that way.
[00:24:00] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:24:00] Speaker B: Because God is not that way. And so I remember when I was first leaving, I was around 20 years old, which is already a very formative time for a young person. And looking, looking at 20 year olds now, I'm like, you look like you're in high school. I can't believe I was doing all that when I was your age, that I was like, work, like wrestling with all these things as such a young person. And I had this conversation with my dad where I was like, hey, if you can show me why we do all this stuff and give me a good explanation. I'm in. But I need a biblical reason why we're doing all this stuff that's not. We're trying to please people. Because I can't. I'm like, I'm at a point where it doesn't feel like we're pleasing God. It feels like we're trying to please people. And I had started really reading the Bible for myself, and I was like, I'm not seeing this. The consistency that I need to see. I'm seeing inconsistency because I'm. The Bible's telling me that there's no fear in love and that I won't be afraid if I follow Jesus and then I will have confidence. And I was like, I'm insecure. I'm afraid of everything.
I feel like God's trying to kill me.
This is not consistent with what I'm reading. So I was like, I need to know why are we doing all this stuff? And I need someone to explain it to me. And so we really took a hard look at the Bible together and we walked away from it saying, this is not right. Like, this is not the right thing. And at the time, he was a pastor at an IFB church because that's why we originally settled in Wisconsin, is that he became a pastor here. And so I was going to his church at the time when I left.
So not only was I leaving ifb, but I was the pastor's daughter, his oldest daughter, leaving his church.
And he can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that he had to kind of fight for me to have the right to walk back into that building after that. Because the head pastor of the church, my dad was an assistant pastor. The head pastor didn't want me to be allowed back in the building because.
[00:25:46] Speaker A: Sure, yeah, because.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: And I wasn't. I wasn't out drinking every night. I wasn't doing drugs. I wasn't.
[00:25:52] Speaker A: You were questioning.
[00:25:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I was just questioning. I was just no longer seeing eye to eye. And that was very eye opening for our whole family. And it was shortly after that was less than or maybe about six months after I left that my dad resigned from being a pastor. And we all walked away from it and ended up. He ended up going to the church that I was going to for a while until they moved there down south now. But okay, yeah.
[00:26:15] Speaker A: Growing up in the culture that y' all did, the life that y' all live, living on a bus, you lived the uber acceptance role like, he had to keep the image up to maintain the churches, to allow y' all to come in and sing and people to invite you in, because, I mean, there are. I've had conversations with guys that their livelihood is traveling with their families. They listen to this podcast and they're singing in IFB churches every single weekend. And they're like, bro, we're sick of this stuff. We're tired. I have conversations weekly with people that are booking IFB churches that will sit in the choir lofts, that will sit on the front rows and shout and hoop and holler, and then they get in their truck and they're like, I can't stand this stuff. I'm so sick of this stuff. I'm tired of it. I wish I could get out. They don't know how to do anything else because that's been their culture for so long. And if you're listening to this episode and that's. You just leave. Just stop. I mean, God will take care of you. You're. What she just said a minute ago hits the nail. So on the spot, the head, you're comfortable. You're in a place where there's comfort and security, and maybe it's God making you uncomfortable. So you step out in faith and actually put what you sing and preach to practice and step out in faith. Man, that's a good word. We could do a whole different episode on that. But I think. I think growing up in that culture, you know, your dad was feeling that pressure to keep the appearance up. My family with 10 kids living on a bus, showing up and singing, you know, we can't question the legalism or we have to have the skirts on because that's what's going to pay the paychecks. And, man, that's good. Hey, did you set out to become a voice for recovering fundies, or did it happen organically?
[00:28:00] Speaker B: I.
A little bit of both. Because when I first. When I first came out, obviously, it's like.
Well, I guess the way I could say is like, you can take the girl out of the ifb, but you can't take the IFB out of the girl, because in a sense, it's like, was still so much of that combativeness in me, because when you're in ifb, it's like you are taught how to defend your faith, quote unquote. And it's just how to beat people up with words about why the King James is the right version or why you believe whatever you believe, you know, and so it's like you're taught how to fight with people in order to prove a point, but you're not actually taught apologetics. And I'm really thankful for my dad in this sense because he did really care about apologetics. So we would watch a lot, lot of apologetics videos. He took me and my siblings through this. He like gave us this whole curriculum, this whole course on apologetics. So we had a pretty solid foundation at home. And I think that's one of the reasons that I did maintain such a strong faith after ifb. Because. And I think that's why a lot of kids don't is because their parents aren't as intentional at home. So I'm thankful for that. But yeah, so when I first started to leave ifb, I was very on fire about what I was learning and I felt very much like this is wrong and this is an injustice and someone needs to know. And I expected other people to also feel that way and they did not. They did not feel that way. And so I was, I took to social media in a, in a very hot headed way and was like, this is something I need to get out there. People are lying to people. This is not right. This is not what God would want. And even though my actions were, I meant them well, it wasn't necessarily the right way to approach it because I was still so hurt and so broken from what I had gone through that I was really spewing a lot of things that weren't necessarily helpful for my own healing journey or for other people. And so my advice to people who are coming out right now is like, hold off on posting it about, on like social media because you just need to wait till you're a little bit healed. Like, just give yourself a little while. It might be a few years before you feel ready to talk about this stuff. And that's okay. You don't have to go and be a social media warrior. You don't have to.
So I then took a little bit of time off from social media right at the beginning of the pandemic. And I was like, you know what? I'm not going to do this anymore. I don't want to have this platform. And it wasn't as big of a platform as I have now. It was a few thousand followers, but to me at the time it felt big. And then I opened a new Instagram account, was just going to use it to post personal stuff. And as I posted, I just kept finding myself talking about these things and it kind of just came about naturally that people found me and were like, you're putting things into words that I never knew how to say, and it's really helping me. And so I was like, okay. I really feel like this is something that I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to be this voice for people to help them. And so for the past 5ish years, it kind of has morphed into what it is now. And I am. I'm really grateful for the platform that I have and the opportunity that I have. It's been really humbling, and I don't take it lightly. Like, people definitely have probably used me as a therapist in ways that they shouldn't have. You know, like, they'll come into my inbox and tell me their whole, whole life story, and I'm like, wow, you actually need to go to the police.
I'm like, you need.
[00:31:09] Speaker A: My goodness. There's so much truth in that. Yes.
[00:31:12] Speaker B: I'm like, you need professional help. Like, I can't help you with this. But.
But I still feel humbled that people trust me to be that voice. And it's been encouraging to me to know that my story has helped other people. And now I'm trying to make it more of a. Like, look how great of a life you can have outside of that. You don't have to be reliant on all these rules to flourish in Christ.
[00:31:33] Speaker A: So I'll be honest, when you first started, I think I jumped on about three years ago, and, man, you were taking it to the Theo boys. Like, is that what they call them? Is that the Theo Bros? My goodness. You were roasting them. I'm like, these guys are. They ain't got a.
They ain't got a chance. If she gets on it. Like, it was. It was absolutely hilarious. I loved it.
[00:31:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. They still don't like me. I'm sure that there's group chats about me on Twitter and stuff.
[00:31:58] Speaker A: Oh, just go on Reddit. They're all there.
[00:32:00] Speaker B: Oh, I'm sure.
[00:32:02] Speaker A: What's something ridiculous that you used to believe or did because of legalism?
[00:32:09] Speaker B: Oh, only one thing.
[00:32:12] Speaker A: Lay them out there.
[00:32:13] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
I mean, I think that we had quite a few ridiculous modesty rules that we adhered to a lot of, like, the skirt thing, skirts being more modest than pants. And now I'm like, I need you to take a good, hard look at that and determine whether or not you think that's true. You know?
So, yeah. Different things like that or just.
I don't know. Oh, my gosh. There's so many things like so many roles, not listening to certain types of music. I thought Michael W. Smith wasn't a Christian.
Genuinely believed that, you know, our guilty pleasure music was the occasional casting crown song.
[00:32:49] Speaker A: Listen. There was a running joke on this podcast for a long time. We tried to get a casting crowns reference in every episode. And I was like, every song sounds the same. They all have the same meaning. And I. I'm not a. I love Cassie Crowns. I love their heart. I just hate their music. So.
[00:33:06] Speaker B: Yeah, so there. There were just so many, so many things.
Rules about, like, I don't know, alcohol, and I know you mentioned cigars at the beginning and like, smoking and stuff. And now I'm just like, all this stuff is so silly. And there's no biblical reference point for any of these things that we're doing.
Believing that the King James Bible is like the best version ever. That's actually absurd. Absurd now. And yeah, so. And I have nothing against the King James at a base level. I'm just like.
[00:33:34] Speaker A: I mean, everything I memorized is King James. So if I go to quote a verse, it's coming out in these and thousand days and coming out King's English.
Hey, what would you say are some practical steps for unlearning shame and fear while also keeping your faith intact? Like, what did you do? How did you unlearn shame and fear of not doing the legalistic rules but also keeping your faith intact?
[00:33:59] Speaker B: I would say that studying scripture with an open mind is so, so important, not determining what you want to get out of it before you read it. Because there are so many things that I was taught that the Bible said that the Bible doesn't actually say. And I would interpret it through the lens of IFB versus interpreting IFB through the lens of Scripture, you know. And so for me, I remember I was still in IFB when this happened, but I read, I think it was Psalm 143, verse 8. And it says something about, like, God's loving kindness and how he is trustworthy. And I remember reading that and feeling really comforted by that during a hard time when I was around 19 years old. And ever since then, I kind of had had a new look at the Bible and it was just like a new outlook and was thinking, like, this is actually encouraging. Like, I had never read the Bible this way. I had only ever read it as a chore, as a, you know, no breakfast before your Bible because you have to read your Bible first thing in the morning. You have to pray for two hours every day or you're Not a good Christian. And that's how I approached the Bible. And I always had a shame based view of myself because of that. Because I thought I am a bad Christian because I'm not reading the Bible every day, or because I don't get something out of it every time. But then I just changed my perspective after, especially after leaving IFB to like, how can this encourage me in my life?
And when I was first leaving ifb, I was shunned by basically everyone I know. I don't have any childhood friends right now.
I have, there's a few people who I connected with later on when I was a teenager who were still in the ifb, but they're not. Anyone who I'm still friends with who knew me before is not an ifb. So I don't have any current IFB childhood friends, which is sad because I'm like, man, I just don't have any connections with those people who I used to be close, close friends with.
And so it really is so important to lean on the Lord when that sort of thing happens. Because for me, all my shame was coming from those relationships. And I didn't realize it at the time and I was really heartbroken when it happened. But now looking back, I can honestly say it was a good thing that those people were taken out of my life because otherwise that shame would have only multiplied.
And God really carried me through that season and helped me to realize that like, he wasn't saying these things about me. So, like, really take a good look at what God is saying about you and what he's saying about Himself in Scripture and then live in those truths that he's saying that you are loved and that you don't have to be afraid and that you can be confident in your faith and that he will never leave you or forsake you and that he's always going to be there for you. Like, those are the truths that he speaks about himself.
[00:36:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:42] Speaker B: The other stuff about him being a cruel person who just hates you and wants you to follow those rules, I'm like, that's never what he's ever said about himself. Like, he doesn't, he doesn't want you to believe that. So you really have to do some internal work to get that out. And there are still things that I'm digging out constantly that I'm like, oh, well, there's a new thing that I have to work on, you know. But six, almost seven years post, I can say I'm doing pretty well.
[00:37:10] Speaker A: That's why we called this The Recovering Fundamentalist podcast people are like, well, are you always going to be recovering? Well, you got to understand, you just said it a minute ago. You could take the girl out of the ifb, but it's hard to take the IFB out of the girl. Like, we're always on a journey of recovering. You know, I mean, an alcoholic is still an alcoholic. They just don't drink alcohol. Their desires are changing. My bent is legalism.
Even all These years later, 25 years later, after leaving legalism in the IFB church, if you will, my go to at times is still legalism. And that's why Recovering Fundamentalist podcast is because I'm still recovering. And it's a daily dependence on Jesus that I don't slip back to rules to try to earn his acceptance. I press forward in the recovery that he's brought me out of to find hope and healing and life in him. And, you know, I think the biggest thing that. I can't remember what book it came from, but I say it a lot here at my church, I've said it on here a lot. That one of the biggest things that helped me when I left the IFB was realizing that on my very best day, God doesn't love me anymore, and on my very worst day, he doesn't love me any less. That totally wrecks legalism, because legalism, as you've mentioned, is this set list of rules that you've got to do, and if you're not doing them, you feel dirty, you feel bad, you feel like a sinner.
So I'm interested, because maybe there's some people that are listening to this podcast who knew you when you were in the ifb, who have shunned you, who have turned you completely off, and they're like, oh, she's crazy. She's worldly.
For those that are listening that you used to be friends with, or those that maybe have done that to other people, what encouragement or help or insight would you give for someone who's afraid to let go of a system that they grew up in, and they're listening to this and they know there's got to be more, but they're. They feel stuck. What kind of encouragement would you give them?
[00:39:13] Speaker B: Yeah, well, the first step is that you have to be okay with admitting that you are wrong.
And you have to allow yourself to accept the fact that you maybe have been lied to, even though that's embarrassing and you have believed lies. And then you have to take the steps to get out of those things.
If you are, you know, Saying on the outside, I want to be done with this. I don't want to be here anymore. And then everything that you're doing is the opposite of that. You're never going to find peace.
There was a while where I was doing that same thing, where I was like, I want to be done. I can't do this anymore. But I was still showing up to the services. I was still singing. I was still doing the thing. And, like, I can honestly say, my whole childhood, I almost exclusively hated going to church.
There's never a time that I remember that I'm like, oh, that was the best time of my life. Like, I just loved going to church and being screamed at.
You know, there were a couple times I got spat on from sitting in the front pew, and I'm like, there, hype, man.
I don't have a lot of fond memories of going to church, but ever since I've been out of ifb, I love going to church. I look forward to it every week because I know that there are people there who love me and would support me even if I was not doing something that they necessarily agree with. I know there are people there who will challenge me to be a better Christian. I know that I'm going to hear something that's actually helpful from God's word and isn't beating me down.
So taking that leap is so, so scary because you do have to kind of come to terms with the fact that you might lose everything.
[00:40:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:47] Speaker B: Especially if you're in a ministry family. Especially if you are making income from going to churches. It's like, that's terrifying because then you look at, like, what am I going to do for work? What am I going to do for a job? What am I going to do to support my family?
And all I have to say to that is, like, God's going to take care of you. Like, if you are following what God wants for you. The Psalms tell us that he has never left his children hungry. Like, we are not going to be begging. He's not going to leave you alone. You might struggle, it might be hard, but, like, he's always going to be there for you. And I speak that from so much experience, just knowing, like, I made some of the hardest decisions of my entire life when I walked away from ifb, and I am so glad I did. I don't have a single regret from leaving it. I have had such a full life outside of it, and I cannot imagine going back.
And even though it's been super hard along the way, there have Been so many lonely seasons for me.
God has restored so many things and he has given me so much confirmation that I'm doing the right thing and given me so much peace and so much assurance that there's nothing that anyone could do to drag me back there. You know, Good.
[00:41:54] Speaker A: You know, I think sometimes what tends to happen is that fear of the unknown, it keeps us trapped. And ultimately we stay because we are afraid of the unknown. Where steps of faith and honestly staying is not necessarily practicing faith. It's comfortable, it's familiar, it's what we've known. And sometimes taking that step of faith, yes, it's fearful, yes, it's into the unknown, but that's where God will show himself like never before. I've told this story I believe on here. But years ago I was a student at New Life camp.
I'm just a kid. I'm terrified of the deep end because I don't swim in lakes or rivers or oceans. I swim in pools and I'm on the shallow side because I don't want to jump off the diving board because I don't want to get into the lake. And so I'm the only kid over here on the shallow side. But to jump, you had to jump off the high dive in order to get your bracelet that would let you swim in the deep end. Long story short, I got to the top of the diving board, my friends talked me into it. I bear hugged the diving board. I was terrified. I'll never forget this seven foot tall lifeguard. His name was Hank. He said, hey Groves, you got to take a step. Gravity will take over. You're husky. Take a step off the diving board. I was like, I can't do it. He said, bro, trust me, one step and you'll be hooked. I was like, alright. So I stood up, wobbly knees and all, thinking I'm going to pass out, took a step into the unknown and I loved it. I did the zip line, I did the blob, I did, you know, I swam. There was no lake nest monsters or dinosaurs in the water. And I was like, this is great. I would have missed this because I was so afraid of the unknown. And I think that's what so many people are doing is they're hugging the diving board, they're hugging culture, they're hugging legalism, they're hugging rules, they're hugging the things that they've held onto for so long and they're so worried about what the other side will look like. But all it takes is a step of faith and it maybe is this episode, it may be, you know, hearing that voice that's calling you to something deeper and you really want to grow in your faith with Jesus. This is the opportunity to take that step of faith. And I want to encourage you to do that today. Maybe you feel trapped, maybe you feel stuck.
Take the step of faith and see what God will do. I promise you it's beyond the open door where new and fresh anointing is like you've never experienced before. And you will find life full into the abundance. You'll really start living. John chapter 10 and verse 10 out new and real life is waiting for you there.
[00:44:21] Speaker B: Yeah, I often actually, I liken it to a kind of a zoo sometimes where it's like you go to a zoo, see a lion in the zoo, and it's a beautiful animal and, and they get their food every day and they don't have to fend for themselves and they have everything provided for them. And they are in a cage. They're in a cage, they can't get out. And it's like IFB is exactly the same way where it's like you have everything given to you and hand fed to you. Here's what you need to do, here's how to live a godly quote unquote life. Here's how to make sure your kids turn out perfect. Here's how to be a good Christian and at the end of the day, you're still in a cage and your kids might not turn out okay and they might leave the faith. And then you're gonna have to grapple with what did I do wrong while I was doing right. And it's like you have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable and accept that God has that freedom for you. But freedom is terrifying. And it, it means you have responsibility. And I think there's so many people in IFB who, who live there because it's familiar and they think this is just how it is. And I would rather do something familiar that's easy than have to figure out a whole new way of life outside of this. And on the other side of that, it's like, like it's easier to be graceless when you don't allow grace to be given to yourself.
So if you don't accept the grace of God for yourself, then you don't have to give it to other people.
When you accept fully, God has, Jesus has paid the whole price. I don't have to abide by certain strict religious rules in order to earn his favor or his love.
I can Just live in that grace and just abide in the freedom and the grace that he's given me.
You also have a responsibility to give that same grace to other people. And it's like that parable where, you know, the. The slave has his debts paid off and then goes out and strangles the other guy. And it's like, you can't do that. And that's what IFB people are doing. They're saying, oh, my debt was paid, but you aren't allowed to do this thing because I don't like it. And then you just have to let go of that and sit and be okay with other people doing things that you don't like. And you have to have grace for them because God has had that same grace for you. And, like, none of us are perfect. God has. Is so, so gracious to all of us and is so kind and patient, and he expects us to adopt those same traits and to give them out to other people. And so with ifb, it's like, well, we don't have to accept grace because it makes it easier for us. If we don't have to accept grace for ourselves, we don't have to give it to other people. And unlearning that is really difficult.
[00:46:48] Speaker A: Right.
And, you know, while you're doing your social media, watching the comment section in some of your videos, some of your content, I mean, your comment section on your reels feels like a youth group lock in, had a baby with a Facebook argument. I mean, it's incredible sometimes what I'm seeing here. Have you ever gotten pushback from religious trolls? Give us some of the funny ones that you can remember.
[00:47:09] Speaker B: Have I ever. Well, when have I not?
I. There are people out there who definitely think I'm possessed with a demon of feminism specifically, is what I've heard. Florida.
So there are people. Yeah, yeah, there's. There's people who. Who have said, I used to turn my hate comments into, like, wallpapers, you know?
So there. Yeah, there have definitely been quite a few pushback comments. A lot of people get really angry if I talk about things like tattoos or alcohol. They get really, really upset about that. Even though I'm like, well, Jesus did make wine as his first miracle.
[00:47:43] Speaker A: So it's.
[00:47:44] Speaker B: Well, and it was definitely not. Yeah, it was definitely not grape juice.
So I get quite a bit of pushback. I'm not on Twitter anymore. I used to. I guess I still have an account on there, but I'm not as active on there anymore. So I. Because I've kind of taken a step back, because that's just. It's just a hellscape of social media. It's like the worst.
[00:48:01] Speaker A: Twitter is a hotbed of disgustingness.
[00:48:04] Speaker B: It's. It's like Armageddon over there, and I just don't have the energy for that anymore. But even on Instagram, I still get quite a bit of pushback.
[00:48:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I wish I could go back three years right in the heat of the rfp, like, we were hitting that stride. And some of the petty, stupid arguments that I was having with people that I've long since blocked and haven't even thought about. And that's. This is freedom for somebody. It is not an unpardonable sin to unfriend and block somebody. It literally. Some of you needed to hear that this whole episode, just to hear, go block that person, because they're not doing anything but sucking the joy out of your life. And I have just.
I'm still on X. It's still my favorite platform. The stupid debates are just done. And some people just want, you know, drama for downloads and kind of just saying crazy things for content. And I'm like, this man block so many people on Twitter. And I love it. It's almost. It used to be a thing of pride when I'd block them and they would screenshot it and be like, what did I do to get blocked by jc? You know? But hey, it is what it is.
[00:49:10] Speaker B: So one of my favorites is when a lot of people who knew me in the past wouldn't ever comment, but they'll just. They'll like the comments. Oh, yeah, you know, they'll like the like on. I made a tattoo video, a video about tattoos a while ago that. A few years ago now that really blew up and people were, like, really upset about it. And there were people who I knew as a kid who were liking all the hate comments, but not actually anything. And I was like, say it to my face. Like, why are you so scared?
[00:49:38] Speaker A: Well, as we wrap up, I love that you said earlier on that you can absolutely have a normal and thriving life outside of the IFB and still have a great relationship with Jesus. That is so true. And I think you're fulfilling that. You're. You're showing that you are living what John 10:10 said, not having your life and your joy and your testimony compromised, which is what John 10:10 says. The thief has come to steal and to kill and destroy.
But the last part of that Jesus said, I've come that you can have life and have it more Abundantly. And since leaving the ifb, I mean, it's just that Abundant Life has just seemed to come on full force. And not that it was a bad structure at times. I still am thankful for my culture and heritage and growing up in certain things of that because it gave me a good foundation. But the legalistic man made ideology and rules that took the place of the Bible, breaking free from that has helped open up Abundant life to the max. And as we wrap up, what would you say to someone, you've kind of done this a little bit, but I want you to really focus in on this. Would you say to someone who stuck between legalism and deconstruction, not necessarily deconstruction from their faith, but deconstruction from legalistic man made ideology and how they can rediscover freedom without feeling like they're betraying their past or their faith altogether. What would you say to them?
[00:51:07] Speaker B: Well, I mean there are, there's a lot of different things you can do, but I think first of all is recognizing that a lot of the things you were taught are not true. So you don't actually have to adhere to them. It's like you're not upsetting God by not doing these certain things because, or doing certain things because he never put that, that rule in place anyway. You know, so it's like God has given us so many guidelines, but there's such a. My pastor explains it like there's a huge pasture that is God's will for us and there's a fence around it. And it's like you can go anywhere in this pasture. Just stay inside the fence and the fence, like just stay inside the fence. But it's huge. You can go anywhere you want. And so I think part of that living in abundance and having that, that mindset of abundance versus scarcity because IFB is extremely scarcity mindset. It's very much like, for, it's like you should be broke and you should, because you're supposed to be righteous and only poor people can be righteous. Like, okay, yeah. And then. But it's also just very scarce because it's like we're not allowed to do these things. We're not allowed to hang out with people who aren't like us. God, Jesus is coming back any day now and the Rapture is going to happen. You know, everything is just fear, fear, fear, fear. Yeah. And so I think one of the biggest things for me has just been allowing myself to be open to things that I normally, that I would not have ever said. Yes, to before.
And that includes things that God is calling me to do that I would have said no to because I would not have been able to recognize his voice before because I didn't know what his voice sounded like. And so just kind of sitting and processing and figuring out what. What are the things I actually like. I know earlier you were talking about how it's so hard to feel like you're gonna lose everything when you come out. And you are going to, like, if you leave, ifb. You are not going to know what your favorite color is. You're not going to know what kind of food you like because you've only eaten casserole. You're not going to know what books you want to read. You're not going to know what Bible version to get. You're not going to know what clothes to wear.
I have had to completely rebuild myself. I am a totally different person now than I was before. And I would not have been friends with myself. My old self would not have been friends with me now. She would have been like, you had a nose ring.
So I, you know, I. I think it's just accepting that you're going to have to completely reinvent the wheel in a lot of ways, and you can still hang on to those truths that the gospel is true.
It's good news that we are free from our sin and that we're also free from the law. We're not slaves to the law. Read the book of Galatians, my brother in Christ. Like, if if there's one thing you need to do as someone who is deconstructing fundamentalism, it is read the book of Galatians. Yeah, that is one of the most enlightening books when it comes to maybe the most enlightening book when it comes to legalism. So read that book. Really dig into it and discover that, like, God has so much freedom for you. There's so many things that he has for you that are abundant. But you have to be just willing to say yes to stuff and be okay with completely changing who you are as a person. Yeah, it's going to be so much better.
[00:54:12] Speaker A: That's a good word. You're not walking away from Jesus. You're walking away from the chains of legalism. That's huge. Hey, where can they find your music? Your social media platform, where can they find everything? Christiana Miller.
[00:54:24] Speaker B: Yeah, so on every platform, I'm Christiana Miller Music. You can find me there. I'm also any streaming platform where you find music. I'm also on YouTube. I put out a song last November called Preacher that really kind of talks about my coming out of IFB and finding freedom in Christ. And so there's a music video on YouTube that talks about that. It's a, it's a very well produced video. It was beautiful. I went out and did it in Arizona last year with my producer and it was, it was great. Came out really well. So I'd love for people to watch that if they have more questions. But you can find me on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, wherever you listen to music. And I am putting out a bunch more music this, this year, so lots of different things coming. And yeah, I would love to engage with people if they, if they want to.
[00:55:04] Speaker A: That's great. Thanks for being on with us today.
[00:55:07] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. This has been great.
[00:55:09] Speaker A: Well, folks, if today's episode didn't convict you that you can love Jesus and have a personality, I don't know what will. Big thank you to Christiana Miller for being here with us today, dropping truth bombs, making us laugh, and reminding us that following Jesus doesn't have to feel like spiritual. CrossFit24.7 if you take one thing away from today, let it be this. You don't need to be extreme, always performing or constantly terrified of disappointing God. You can love Jesus, live in freedom and be it. Say with me now, normal bro. Make sure you follow Christiana online. She's singing, she's cracking jokes, she's absolutely roasting legalism one viral reel at a time. And we'll drop her links in the show notes so you can go binge her content like it's a Saturday night revival buffet, right? Minus the guilt. Hey, if you've enjoyed the episode today, share it with the Recovery Fundy friend. Let us leave us a review or write a strongly worded email that we'll definitely pretend to read. All right? Hey, I'm J.C. groves. Thanks for being here with me. This has been episode number 195 of the recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. And until next time, breathe deep, laugh hard, and for the love of all things good, just be normal, bro.
Love you kids.
[00:56:24] Speaker C: Sam sa.
