Episode 194: “Diploma Mills in Christian Education”

[00:00:00] Speaker A: You are listening to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast, where faith and real life collide in a world full of noise, division and debate. We're here to cut through the clutter with honest conversations, bold truth, and a whole lot of grace. Whether you're questioning, growing, or just trying to make sense of it all, you've got a seat at the table. Let's join JC Groves for today's episode. Let's go. [00:00:38] Speaker B: The Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast starts in three you know what makes women stupid is Colin Jesus was not a bartender. You have lost your mind. [00:00:50] Speaker A: Long tongue. Heifers have given me a lot more trouble than heifers wearing britches and you know that. Say amen right there. One Let me tell you something bozo. They'll be selling Frosties in hell for this boy puts on a pair of pink underwear I sucked my thumb till I was 14 years of age. You have one unheard message. First unheard message sent yesterday at 7:15pm. [00:01:22] Speaker C: I was told my entire life that our unaccredited Christian education was superior by far to any secular program. We were always told that accreditation was just a way for some untold government entity to force secular teaching. Of course, when I graduated high school, Bible college was the next logical step. They always told us to just go one year, get your feet wet and be in a grown up and learning how to better serve Christ. And then at the end of the year they ask you why you're second guessing God's calling on your life. Or ask if you want to be a quitter. The particular Bible college I attended in Texas was created to keep from losing all of the church's good workers to other places such as Hiles Anderson or Texas Baptist College. The crazy things I experienced in college are another story, but this was the definition of a diploma mill. The Sunday school teachers, teen department workers, and more than a few pastors whose church plants didn't work out became the professors. The pastor and the founding vice president both had honorary doctorates. They had also attended similar institutions. Institutions. I left after six years of basically spinning my wills. My wife graduated with a degree in Christian education and teaching. After graduating, the pastor forbade her from teaching at another IFB school across town for fear they would make her transfer her membership. She had to get a different job and eventually became a stay at home mom. Recently, her excitement for teaching has been rekindled. Of course, the public school system doesn't recognize her degree and she was told she would need to repeat at least some school. Unfortunately, we soon discovered that no school would accept any of her credits. We even tried some places that accept some Christian school credits and count towards a degree, but it was in vain. As we got more and more desperate, we even tried to see if the Crown College of the Bible, a very IFB but accredited school, would accept them. Even they did not. The way I see it, the problem is twofold. If you get your degree and try to work outside of the ifb, it's not recognized. Then if you remain in the IFB and you change anything, any standard, then the IFB will not recognize it. I've even heard of colleges rescinding degrees, although in my opinion that's like taking back a bag of fool's gold. My wife started over from square one. She has worked relentlessly as a full time teacher's aide, mom, wife, and this year she will be graduating with an accredited bachelor's degree. There's a term called the Dunning Kruger Effect. The definition is this cognitive bias leads individuals with low ability in a specific area to overestimate their competence. Essentially, they lack the skills needed to recognize their own incompetence. Because most diploma mill professors also have diploma mill degrees, even the schools themselves don't realize how useless they are. [00:04:36] Speaker A: Welcome back to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast where we're breaking free from legalism and discovering the joy of following King Jesus. I'm your host, J.C. groves. Hey. Want to give a huge thank you to our incredible supporters over at Patreon. Your generosity helps keep the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast going strong. From covering production costs to helping us create new content that reaches people around the world. You're not just supporting the podcast, you are helping amplify stories of freedom and grace. If you've been impacted by what we're doing here and want to help, consider joining the RFP Patreon community. Whether it's 5, 10, 15, 50, $500 a month. Hey, every bit helps us continue to challenge legalism and share the hope of those who need it the most. Plus, you'll get access to exclusive content, early releases and behind the scenes updates. Join [email protected] recovering fundamentalist podcast JC thanks again for being part of the RFP fam. Hey, we want to congratulate a few of our winners on our drawings that we've been having over on our social media, Facebook, Instagram and Twitt. We gave away a Alistair Begg 365 day devotional called Truth for Life. Barbara Gillette and David Pinkham won that. Congratulations there. We also gave away two new King James Version Premium Bibles Megan Erickson and Dennis Mays. They were the winners of those. And Melissa Gwynn won the Humble Lamb Premium Edition yellow lambskin with blue ribbons Premium Bible man, this thing is beautiful. I actually preached from it a few times. I love it, but it has pictures in it so my ADHD was going a little crazy every once in a while, especially when I preached out of Nehemiah. I got to looking at the picture and forgot what I was saying. So congratulations to Melissa Gwynn on that. We're going to be doing a Father's Day giveaway. Be sure to head on over to the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast, social media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and TikTok to get registered. This is episode number 194 and today we've got a very important and timely conversation lined up, especially for those of you thinking about Bible College, Seminary or even just wrestling with where to send the next generation of church leaders. Of course, we are in graduation season. I've attended way too many graduations this year already, and I want to start out here before we even get into this episode, by clearly saying that there are some absolutely solid Christian schools out there. Schools like Word of Life, Bible Institute, Mission University, and of course, Luther Rice Theological College and Seminary. We support them fully and believe that they're doing incredible things for the kingdom. And we're diving deep into a topic today that doesn't get talked about enough Accreditation in Christian higher education. What does it mean? Why does it matter? And what are the real risks of attending a school that isn't accredited? Joining me today is Dr. Marcus Merritt, the director of the D Man Program at Luther Rice Theological Seminary. He's been in the trenches of Christian education for years and brings a wealth of knowledge and passion to the table. And we're going to talk about the differences between academic rigor and spiritual formation, the myths and the misunderstandings around accreditation, and why credibility in education actually matters for the gospel. This episode is especially for pastors, students, parents, and anyone who cares about raising up strong, equipped leaders for the church. A couple texts that I got in when we put out that this episode was going to air, and I want to read a couple of these to you. As a graduate of an unaccredited Christian school, I've encountered firsthand the frustration of navigating a professional world that often prioritizes accreditation credentials. While my education provided a strong foundation in faith and values, the lack of accreditation has presented challenges in gaining recognition and opportunities in the mainstream educational and professional setting. This experience highlights the importance of accreditation and ensures credibility and opening doors to broader educational career pathways. One listener wrote in and said nothing quite humbles you like handing someone your diploma from Reverend Billy Bob Bible's Barn and Grill and watching their face as they google it, only to find a Facebook page with two likes and a potluck schedule. I worked hard for that degree. I wrote a 10 page paper on why the King James Bible is the only inspired English translation and passed Greek by corrected correctly identifying agape as a type of Christian love. Turns out employers don't care if you graduated Summa Hallelujah. When your school isn't a credited by anyone other than your youth pastor. Boy, it's going to be a great episode. Grab you a cup of coffee, light up a cigar and let's get into it. Dr. Merritt, welcome to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. Man, I have been looking forward to this conversation. You bring a wealth of experience not just in academics, but in real world ministry and leadership and I know our listeners are going to benefit from your insight. Thanks for taking the time to join us today. We're going to have a conversation today that a lot of folks in our world need to hear. Especially those who've wondered if the piece of paper hanging on their wall actually opens doors or just starts awkward conversations at job interviews. It's good to have you with us here today. Welcome to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. [00:10:12] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me. J.C. and I got tickled at hearing those testimonies. [00:10:17] Speaker A: Oh, they're crazy. You've been on the podcast with us before, haven't you? [00:10:21] Speaker B: I have. From my hotel room in Israel. [00:10:24] Speaker A: You know what? I forgot all about that. That was a great episode sitting up there at the Dan Hotel right outside of the old city. Man, that was a great episode. [00:10:34] Speaker B: It was. [00:10:34] Speaker A: I was a little jet lagged and not remembering it. But man, we're glad to have you back with us. So set us up a little bit, tell us a little bit of who you are, your role at Luther Rice Theological Seminary and then give us some background to the school. [00:10:46] Speaker B: Sure. I actually began my ministry as a bi vocational pastor. I was raised in a Southern Baptist church that became an independent Baptist church. And for about three years we had a crazy if IFB pastor. But after he left we had a long term pastor come in and we were what you would call IFB light. And our pastor was a godly man, someone I'm still in touch with today and someone that that was a blessing in my life. But I left there and became a bivocational pastor at a Small church. And it was during that time that I discovered Luther Rice and actually got an accredited bachelor's degree. I went on from there and enrolled. By that time, I was a pastor in Alabama, and I enrolled at Beeson Divinity School at Sanford University to work on an M. Div. By the time I finished an M. Div, I was working for the Alabama Baptist State Board of Missions, and I went to New Orleans to do my Doctor of Ministry. I worked for. After leaving the pastorate, I became a denominational serpent, as they call us. We would say denominational servant, but they would say denominational serpent. And I worked for the Alabama Baptist Convention in the Georgia Baptist Convention. Total of about 15 years. Took early retirement. I'd been teaching at Luther Rice as an adjunct. And when I took early retirement at the end of 2020, Luther Rice put me on full time. And I was teaching in the undergraduate level, and I loved it. And I could have retired again teaching undergraduate because you're teaching pastors on the front end of their ministry. But in 2022, I got called into the president's office. Our president, Dr. Stephen Steinhilber, who is a godly wise man. And I walk in, and our president standing, and our provost is sitting on the couch, Dr. Evan Posey. And Dr. Steinhilber says, shut the door. I'm either going to get fired or promoted. [00:12:43] Speaker A: I'm not quit. [00:12:45] Speaker B: So he said, we want you to pray about being the director of the Doctor of Ministry program, which means you're the president. [00:12:52] Speaker A: You're the. [00:12:52] Speaker B: You're the director of the doctor. You know, don't worry about it. Yeah, a nice way of saying, this is your job. Take it early. [00:12:58] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:12:59] Speaker B: So I. I yielded to their Wisdom and since 2022, been the Director of that program. And just love every moment of it. [00:13:07] Speaker A: That's awesome. Tell us a little bit about the school. Luther Rice Theological College and Seminary. [00:13:12] Speaker B: Yes. Well, our president made us all memorize the mission statement, but then it changed a little bit. So I'll just tell you the mission of Luther Rice College and Seminaries to serve the church. And where it changed, we added and the community by providing biblically based on campus and distance education to Christian men and women for ministry. And again, it changed. And the marketplace with an end to granting undergraduate and graduate degrees. The reason it changed was because prior to the change, we only offered religious degrees. Our bachelor's degree was Bachelor of Arts in Religion. We had master's degrees in everything from apologetics to Master of Divinity and then a Doctor of Ministry degree. Well, we've added some degrees for the marketplace. Now you can take a biblically based conservative approach and get a Bachelor of Arts in psychology. You can get, for example, a PhD in organizational leadership. So we have some degrees that Christian men and women can take if they're not called to full time ministry. So we want Christian lawyers and we want Christian counselors and we want Christian leaders in whatever organization they're working for. So that's why we expanded that definition. [00:14:27] Speaker A: I love that. What are the origins and the foundings and all of that with Luther Rice? [00:14:32] Speaker B: Well, Luther Rice was founded in 1962, two years before I was born. You can do the math. And the reason it was founded by Dr. Gene Witty and some other pastors was because if you'll think back during that time, there was a real leftward drift in the Southern Baptist Convention. Now, we're not necessarily a Southern Baptist only school. I'd say about 50% of our students are Southern Baptists. But we don't get any funds from the Southern Baptist Convention for the cooperative program or anything like that. But these are Southern Baptist pastors not happy with Southern Baptist seminaries. So they started Luther Rice, who was Luther Rice was. He was an evangelist and someone that was known for promoting missions and, you know, a famous preacher in the early days of the country. And they named it Luther Rice. And they wanted a school that was evangelically based, that was doctrinally sound, that was conservative, that believed in the inerrancy of scripture. And I believed in also the sufficiency of scripture. And so that was the founding core of the school. The school was one of those what I call church basement schools. In its beginning, Central Baptist Church there in Jacksonville, Florida, where Dr. Witte was pastor, but later got their own building. And then 1992, I believe it was, the school moved to Atlanta in Lithonia, where our current campus is. [00:15:58] Speaker A: Okay. Now, I was looking at some of the names of alumni that were from Luther Rice Seminary. Some of them actually shocked me. There's a. There's one name on there that I honestly didn't expect. Give us some of the alumni from Luther Rice Seminary. [00:16:12] Speaker B: Well, probably our most famous alumnus is Dr. Charles Stanley, the late, great Dr. Stanley. But also many of our viewers may know Dr. Jerry Vines. [00:16:22] Speaker A: Sure. [00:16:22] Speaker B: He's also a graduate. And if you have your retirement in guidestone, the executive director of guidestone is a man named Dr. O.S. hawkins, who's a graduate. Names like John ANKERBERG, Jody Hice, Dr. Stephen Olford, the great preacher. The great English preacher, Stephen Olford. Gerald Harris, a good friend of mine, former editor of the Christian Index, Spiros Zoey D's. I can't pronounce his name. Our mutual friend Joel Sutherland right now is in the Demon program at Luther Rice. Joel's a dear friend and love him, but one name may shock you. That's Shelton Smith, who is the editor, or was, I guess he still is, of the sword of the Lord. So, yeah, we even have some ifp. [00:17:07] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness, that's great. I didn't realize John Ankerberg went there. I. I worked with John on his show here in Chattanooga for, for many years. When I was doing my internship at Brainerd Baptist Church over in Chattanooga, he was there, would sit next to me and we struck up a friendship there. Well, today we're talking about accreditation. We're talking about the importance of knowing that your degree is more than just. What did the listener say? Billy Bob. I love that. Yeah. So let's start with the basics. What does it mean for a school to be accredited? [00:17:40] Speaker B: Well, let me, let me start by saying what it doesn't mean. It doesn't mean that the government tells you what to teach. That's. That's such a. Yes, a misnomer, such a lie tactic. It's a fear tactic to, to get away from being accredited. Accreditation is actually a very rigorous peer reviewed process. So when the SACs accreditors come on campus at Luther Rice, for example, it's not the government, it's other accredited sacs, accredited seminaries that come and they evaluate our institution's academic quality. They evaluate our faculty qualifications, they evaluate our curriculum and even our student services and our overall effectiveness. I brought with you about half of a report that I'm working on right now for sacs. This is the Doctor of Ministry program review. Every five years, I have to produce this document. And I want to leave this with you to show you how detailed it is. Everything from finances to library services, student services, the. The qualifications of everybody that teaches in the DMin program. And it's extremely, extremely in depth. It's an in depth analysis of the program to make sure that it is rigorous and academically sound. [00:19:01] Speaker A: Why is accreditation especially important in Christian higher education? [00:19:07] Speaker B: Well, Christian education can mean nothing or it can mean everything. As you know, accreditation helps to ensure that the seminary or the Bible college combines academic rigor with theological soundness. It's great to be theologically sound, and I think, you know, a lot of schools are, but they don't have the academic rigor. [00:19:27] Speaker A: Sure. [00:19:27] Speaker B: And you need to combine Both of those to help students become who God has called them to be. [00:19:34] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, Marcus, there are many people listening here that went to a Christian university that may not have been accredited. It may have had some kind of enter accreditation, but no accredible accreditation, if you will. Funny story, for those that are listening to the podcast that went to Tennessee Temple University with me back in the day, I was student body vice president. I'm sitting on stage with Duane Coleman or Matt Grier, I can't remember which one it was. And our President, Dr. Roger Stiles gets up and we had been hearing about sacs accreditation. And Dr. Stiles, he always would say, this is great. It's great, we love it. I love Dr. Stiles, he was hilarious. But on this day, we're sitting on stage and it was the day that Tennessee Temple, about four or five years from closing, was approved for SACS accreditation. I don't know if he understood it, man. He's up there, he's like, we are SACS accredited. It's great. We love Sacks and Sax is so much. And we're all sitting here going, what is happening right now? He just kept going on and on. And I'm trying to keep a straight face sitting on the stage. And I know many of my listeners that are Tennessee Temple alum will understand how incredible that day was. Oh, goodness. Hey, let me ask you this though, because what we heard from Daniel Wynn at the beginning of this episode, from the listeners that wrote in, what are the long term consequences for attending a unaccredited Bible college or seminary? [00:21:03] Speaker B: Let me first answer that by saying what SACS stands for. [00:21:07] Speaker A: That would probably be wise. [00:21:08] Speaker B: The Southern association of Colleges and Schools and the full name SAC coc. So it's Southern association of Colleges and Schools, Commission on Colleges. Well, that's one of three accreditations that Luther Rice has. We also have tracts, which is the transnational association, and we have abhe, which is the association for Biblical Higher Education. [00:21:29] Speaker A: That's good. That's good. [00:21:30] Speaker B: So that those are that. But. And the other part of the question. [00:21:32] Speaker A: Was what, what are the long term consequences of attending an unaccredited Bible college or seminary? [00:21:39] Speaker B: Well, the, the biggest consequence is what's already been stated. You can't transfer any credits. They aren't recognized by anyone outside of that small little group. But if you start at Luther Rice and you want, you, you decide you don't want to finish there, you want to go to Wheaton College or Dallas Theological Seminary. Well, our credits will transfer to any other SACS accredited school, and probably any non accredited school would take those credits as well. But certainly any accredited school. But the danger and the risk of going to a non accredited school is you're stuck there. [00:22:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:11] Speaker B: And if, let's say you finish your undergraduate degree at a non accredited school and you want to go to New Orleans to do your master's degree or you want to go to Dallas or wherever. Well, they're not going to, they're not going to let you enter into the master's program because they're not going to recognize your bachelor's degree, your undergraduate degree. [00:22:28] Speaker A: Wow. You know, I always heard at Tennessee Temple that for pastors, for those going into the ministry, accreditation isn't that big of a deal. For those that were going to be teachers and psychologists and counselors, you know, I kind of questioned why are they even here? Like, what's the point of this? Because your degree is not going to help you at all. And there are so many stories and so many people are listening right now that got a degree, a four year education, worked hard, but then had to start over. That's exactly what happened at the beginning of this episode. Why? What is it that students and parents and pastors that are looking to send those who are looking for a university someplace to extend when evaluating Christian colleges or seminaries? What are some things they need to look for? [00:23:15] Speaker B: Well, let me start by saying that I am the same in the same boat that a lot of maybe our listeners are in, or I was when I was just on staff and just a, a lay preacher in that independent Baptist church I mentioned. I went to a non accredited school, got a two year degree. It's not on my resume. If you go to Luther Rice and look at my credentials, it's not listed there because it's no good. And when I did my undergraduate degree at an accredited school, Luther Rice, I had to start over just like so many other people have to do. So that was, that was the danger. [00:23:53] Speaker A: You know, Marcus, some people argue that non accredited school offers more spirit led education. How would you respond to that? [00:24:02] Speaker B: Well, spirit led education, sometimes that's just a misnomer. As we stated a moment ago, it's a reason that schools give for not being accredited. But being spirit led is not antithetical to being accredited. I mean, you can have both of those things and I think we do a good job at that. Luther Rice, for example, our professors, we pray with our students, we worship with our students in chapel. You can attend chapel online and you can join in that way. I know it's not the same. But we have worship together, we have prayer together. We have any number of ways that we interact spiritually with our students. And to suggest that if a school is accredited, it's not spirit led, it's just not true. [00:24:55] Speaker A: Let me ask you this. Why do non accredited schools often cost less? Is cheaper always better in this context? [00:25:02] Speaker B: Well, this is going to sound terrible to some people, but I think most people are going to understand this. You get what you pay for. [00:25:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:09] Speaker B: And that's even true in Christian higher education. Non accredited schools cut cost by avoiding faculty credential requirements. They don't have library standards, they don't have student services. And you get what you pay for. You get a degree that's not. Not valid. [00:25:25] Speaker A: Sure. [00:25:25] Speaker B: But if you want to have all of the educational requirements to be SACS accredited, it costs money. [00:25:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Let me ask you this. How does academic integrity and proper credentials serve the credibility of someone's ministry and witness, if you will? [00:25:45] Speaker B: Well, I think it goes back to just being people of integrity. And I've noticed that people the phonier the degree, especially the honorary degrees, those are the people that are going to demand you call them doctor. And I love what Junior Hill once said. The late great Junior Hill. He said, I'll call any pastor doctor unless I think he wants me to. [00:26:12] Speaker A: That's actually really good hit on that for a second. We, we live in a culture where honorary doctorates are thrown out like candy canes at a Christmas parade. And a lot of these guys will put Dr. In front of their name. Is that a, is that a, a breach of character? Is that a lack of integrity? Like from your stance watching your students go through doctoral program study. And then there's honorary. I understand honorary. Like I understand putting in the time and the work and the effort, watching as a Tennessee Temple student, all of these guys who it was either large donors, it was people who were friends with the president getting these honorary doctorates and then seeing their names on billboards and posters and Dr. And I'm like, that just doesn't match up. What's your gut take on that? [00:27:06] Speaker B: Well, I want to be careful and not just paint with a too broad of a brush because I do know people that, and you do too, that have honorary doctorate. And by the way, Luther Rice has given out one right honorary doctorate to a very deserving man that's worked in the institution, in our library for many, many years, has all kind of master's degrees. [00:27:23] Speaker A: Right. [00:27:24] Speaker B: But yes, it does. It does really speak. It can speak. I should Say to a person's integrity, if they intentionally lead people to believe that they've had a lifelong academic career that's ended with this terminal degree. And you should therefore respect my doctor. By the way, when I go to a church and they say, what do we call you? If I do a lot of transitional pastorate, do we call you Dr. Mary? I'm like, no, my students call me Dr. Mary. You call me Pastor Marcus. [00:27:52] Speaker A: Right. [00:27:53] Speaker B: But I think it can point to. Point pride, can point to just an integrity issue for people. And I know people, and you do, too, that I feel like have crossed into that area with their honorary doctorates. So I think you have to be careful with that. [00:28:08] Speaker A: It feels like it's this grasping for approval, for acceptance, and it. It feels like the checks will be bigger. If I could put that word doctor in front of my name. I mean, come on. We've given out how many honorary RFP doctorates? I mean, Brett Martin has his hanging on the wall. [00:28:26] Speaker B: James Sefried, too. [00:28:27] Speaker A: Oh, that's hilarious. Yeah, he has his as well. Listen, you've spent years in Christian education. How have you seen this role of people understanding accreditation, getting their real degree, living it out? How have you seen this in your life? And what makes you so passionate about this conversation? [00:28:51] Speaker B: Well, I would put it like this. I liken it a lot to our Israel trip. You can be a pastor your whole life. You can love Jesus and you can visualize Jesus's ministry. And going to Israel doesn't really change who you are, but it changes how you see the scripture. We often say you read the Bible in 3D. [00:29:15] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. [00:29:16] Speaker B: It changes you. You have to. You can be a pastor, not go to the Holy Land. [00:29:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:19] Speaker B: But you will admit to me that it changes you hundred percent, deeply. [00:29:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:23] Speaker B: Makes you a better pastor. And I think this education is the same way. I put those two things just side by side. Yeah, it changes you. God calls us the Holy Spirit, empowers us. I get that. But education changes you and helps you be a better minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ. For example, Simon Peter, the apostle Paul. Both are called by the Lord. Both are equipped and empowered by the Spirit. Peter is the leader of the church in the first half of the Book of Acts. Where would we be without that Pentecostal sermon that he preached? We stood on those southern steps where he preached that sermon. Where would we be without all of the leadership that Simon Peter, who walked with Jesus Christ, was mentored and taught by Jesus Christ? Where would the church be without him? We can't even answer that question because we can't fathom that. But about halfway through the Book of Acts, Peter is no longer the leader, as it were. [00:30:26] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:27] Speaker B: That mantle, that leadership mantle switches over to the Apostle Paul. Why was God able to use Paul to write Peter? We got first and second Peter, the Gospel of Mark. Many people say that was Peter, a collection of Peter's sermons. I'm not saying he didn't write anything. He did. But he's a Galilean fisherman. And then you've got Paul who studied at the feet of Gamaliel, this, this man with a Ph.D. as it were. This man who knew the Old Testament and then spent three years in the Arabian desert and God allowed him to learn from the Spirit how that Old Testament relates to the New Testament, how the Old Testament is the completion of. Of New Testament, the completion of the Old Testament in Jesus Christ, and what all of those sacrifices meant. So who takes the church to the next level? It's the PhD. It's the apostle Paul. So that's why I'm passionate about Christian higher education. Because it opens doors. It allows us to lead people in a deeper way and lead them to a place where we couldn't if we didn't have this, this basis of ministry in our lives. [00:31:32] Speaker A: Speaking of leading people, have you, have you ever had to lovingly guide someone who was proud of their uncredited degree but didn't realize the limitations that it carried? [00:31:43] Speaker B: Yes. And again, many times we'll get students who are starting over. They've got an unaccredited degree. And by the way, let me just throw this out there. If someone's listening and you've got college credits from an unaccredited institution, call Luther Rice, email us, call Dr. Steve Pray, our registrar. Sometimes some of the stuff, it may transfer, you don't know. It doesn't cost you anything to try. [00:32:06] Speaker A: Sure. [00:32:07] Speaker B: But many times we get students and they have, you know, Billy Bob's Seminary, whatever, and their credits didn't transfer and they had to start over. So I get them after they've already realized that it was useless. But I'll also say anytime you learn anything, J.C. i mean, that's good. If you go to an undergraduate and you learn something that's real and not some IFB doctrine, but you learn something and you grow. That's good. [00:32:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:32] Speaker B: You know, I'm not an education snob. [00:32:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:34] Speaker B: You know, if you learn something, God, God bless you. [00:32:36] Speaker A: That's it. Advice would you give to a young leader who wants to serve in ministry but Just doesn't know what kind of education path to take. [00:32:45] Speaker B: Well, you can't go to seminary until you first have gone to college. So you can enter seminary. Let's say you, you went to a secular school and you've got a four year degree in psychology or whatever it was, a four year degree in business. You can then go into seminary at Luther Ross or any other seminary. [00:33:06] Speaker A: Right. [00:33:06] Speaker B: And you can take theology class, seminary classes, but you can't start seminary until you first have a college degree. But if so, if you don't have a college degree, what I would say to that person is go somewhere and take something general like a college. A Bachelor of arts in religion going to give you all the basis. It's not going to be specific to any particular ministry. You could be a missionary, you could be a pastor, you could be an associate pastor, you could be an evangelist. [00:33:33] Speaker A: Right. [00:33:34] Speaker B: You can go any path with that. So start your college with a general degree in religion and from there you can decide. And once you know what God is calling you into, then you can tailor your master's degree to whatever area that you feel God is calling you into. [00:33:50] Speaker A: What would you say to the young person who has been told they need an education, a seminary degree before they start serving in ministry? [00:34:00] Speaker B: Well, I kind of disagree with that because when I became a pastor I had, you know, I had that unaccredited. Yeah, it was an associate, it's a two year associate's degree. So really I was a pastor without any accredited. [00:34:17] Speaker A: So. [00:34:18] Speaker B: And I want to go back again. Calling and competency are two different things. I believe God calls us to ministry and our seminary believes that we don't, we don't call people. We don't. We might equip them in one sense, but the Holy Spirit calls and equips people to be ministers. [00:34:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:36] Speaker B: And we're grateful for that. So I think you can be in ministry, but I just think you're only going to go so far. [00:34:45] Speaker A: Right. [00:34:45] Speaker B: The Lord is only going to use you to watch your, your brain power and what your, what your education level is. And you're going to have people in your congregation that have advanced degrees, teachers and lawyers or administrators or CEOs. And I think the pastor should be the most educated person in the church, is my humble opinion. So you can be in ministry, but I just think you're greatly, greatly limiting yourself. [00:35:11] Speaker A: And I think that's where you have to understand that learning never ends. It's not just you get a piece of paper on the wall, Congratulations. Learning is a Lifestyle. It's something that we're always doing. And I think a lot of people, there's this misconception that I have to have degrees before I can serve, before I can start serving in ministry. You know, I started serving while I was at Tennessee Temple University, serving in youth ministry and then going on, and I have not started a master's degree. Maybe I need to sign up with Luther Rice on this episode. [00:35:40] Speaker B: Yes. [00:35:41] Speaker A: But working through that, I have some friends that are my age. I just turned 43 this past Sunday, and I've got friends that for the last 25 years, since we started as freshmen at Tennessee Temple University, they now have a PhD, a master's, a bachelor's, and now they're starting to look for churches to work in. I've got 20 years of ministry experience under my belt while still learning and growing, and so I think there's a couple paths to take. What would you say to the individual? That their education has puffed them up? That their credentials, their education, their degrees have become their sole focus of their ministry? [00:36:22] Speaker B: Well, I certainly hope that I don't come across that way with this podcast, because I am not an education snob. I promise you that at all. But we all see that, and pride can creep out in the IFB world. [00:36:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:36] Speaker B: You know, you're proud that you got your white shirt and your tie in your King James Bible, and that's pride. Yeah, pride can come out in the SBC world, whether I've got my PhD or my D. I mean, we all have the temptation to be prideful. And education is a tool that God can use to help us be better ministers of the gospel. And being a better minister of the gospel means that we are a servant leader. By the way, do you know how to know if you're a servant leader or not? It's by the way you react when someone treats you like a servant. That's how you know if you're a servant leader or not. [00:37:11] Speaker A: Very good. [00:37:12] Speaker B: So if your education is puffing you up, then that's sinful. [00:37:16] Speaker A: That's good. That's a good answer. Marcus. How. How does accreditation uphold the integrity of a Christian witness in education? [00:37:27] Speaker B: Well, it communicates to the world that we Christians value truth, we value excellence, we value accountability, and it's like Paul said in First Corinthians 14, that we do everything decently and in order. An incredible Christian education. It honors God, and it prepares the student to serve more effectively in the church and in the marketplace. [00:37:50] Speaker A: That's good. You hit on something a minute ago that I want to go back to. Why should any serious student of the Bible visit the Holy Land? [00:38:00] Speaker B: Because walking where Jesus walked. [00:38:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:04] Speaker B: Touching what Jesus touched. Being on a boat on the Sea of Galilee, these things. I don't think jc, it made me believe more because I couldn't believe. I can't believe any more than 100%. I mean, that's. That's, you know, I can't believe more. And honestly, I don't know that it makes me love Jesus more because I think I love Jesus as much as I can in this. In this, you know, broken body that we have. This. This sinful body that we have. But it changes you inside out. And I think the word that we use often is that we read the Bible in three dimensions. [00:38:41] Speaker A: So true. [00:38:41] Speaker B: When you can picture in your brain what you're reading about, it just makes it all the more real. [00:38:48] Speaker A: It really does. It's changed my preaching, change my Bible reading. I know my church is sick of me showing pictures of stuff. I'm like, listen, this is what it means. This is Jericho. This is why it says he entered and passed through Jericho. That was on purpose. Like, that's 15 miles away from where he's going. That doesn't seem like much, but when you see it with your eyes, you're like, oh, my goodness. That's uphill for 15 miles. And I said this multiple times while we were over in Israel. Every Bible student should spend some time in Israel. I feel like every seminary, every person that's going to college for a ministry degree needs to go to Israel. And we got some trips coming up. I know our buddies over at For Freedom podcast, Brett and James, they're going to be taking a trip in 2026, and I'm sure you could find all the information there at the For Freedom Podcast. And that's a free plug for them. Do you have any other trips that are going? [00:39:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm going with a church in the fall with the Journey Fellowship Baptist Church with my buddy, Pastor John Lemmings. [00:39:50] Speaker A: Okay. [00:39:51] Speaker B: Who is a Luther Rice grad, by the way. And then I have another pastor's trip scheduled for January. [00:39:57] Speaker A: Nice. [00:39:57] Speaker B: So you can contact the RFP and they. You can get in touch with me if you'd like, or you can. You can Google me and find me. [00:40:03] Speaker A: I may have to go with you. [00:40:04] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I would love for you to go with us. [00:40:07] Speaker A: I would love to get to be the. [00:40:08] Speaker B: I think the. The last. I think it's like January 30th through February 9th or whatever. So. Would love to have you back with us. [00:40:16] Speaker A: That'd be awesome. I think every Christian needs to make a trip to the Holy Land. Not just those that are going into ministry. Every Christian needs to take a trip to the Holy Land. We're all going to be there again someday. Amen. But we need to get there now. And it literally just makes your Bible come to life. [00:40:32] Speaker B: Remember singing at Qumran with the Portuguese? [00:40:37] Speaker A: Yes. [00:40:38] Speaker B: He was playing the guitar. They would sing one verse Portuguese and we would sing. Yeah, we'd sing a verse in English and that was amazing. [00:40:46] Speaker A: We did more singing on that trip. It was a group of pastors that couldn't sing a tune in a bucket, but we sang. [00:40:52] Speaker B: Wow. [00:40:53] Speaker A: Everywhere. One of the. One of my favorite memories. It felt like we just sang everywhere we went. And I'm not sure why. Somebody's like, why do we sing every stuff? I'm like, it's just what we're doing. [00:41:02] Speaker B: By the way, of all of my trips, it's never happened that way before. It's never happened that way since. [00:41:07] Speaker A: Are you serious? [00:41:08] Speaker B: The most worshipful group that I've ever been around in my life. [00:41:12] Speaker A: That was fun singing in the Church of St. Anne right there by the Bethesda with that church from Italy or Africa, where they were. I have no idea what they were saying, but, man, I was going to church. You know, one of the things I did and I made a. I made a commitment that I was not going to pull my phone out and record because I knew people were taking pictures and record. And I just wanted to experience it. And I don't know if you could see in that moment, like, we're all up there taking pictures and videos and I'm just. Bro, Both hands in the air. Going to church. I was like, this is better than any class I've set in. Like, I am literally experiencing a little bit of heaven right here, right now. I ain't got a clue what these Christians are saying, but we're worshiping Jesus. And then at the tomb. Yeah, the garden tomb. We're in this, this concrete room, if you will, getting ready to take communion. And we're singing and looking out the window and seeing people stopping and worshiping along with us right there at the place where Jesus rose again, steps from Gal Gotha. You know, I mean, it was just a incredible experience. I. I can't, I can't. I can't promote it enough. [00:42:16] Speaker B: Our tour guide was. He's a good friend of mine. [00:42:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:19] Speaker B: And I'll give his first name. It's Amir. [00:42:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:21] Speaker B: And he's, you know, he's an Orthodox Jew. [00:42:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:23] Speaker B: And not, you know, not a Christ follower at all. He was standing outside and led us in communion, and we sang and sang and sang. And he was standing outside the door, and when I walked out, he looked at me and he kind of shook his head and he said, that was powerful. [00:42:37] Speaker A: That's incredible. That was so good. [00:42:39] Speaker B: What a witness for Jesus. [00:42:40] Speaker A: I loved it, man. We did sing a lot. My goodness. It was just everywhere we went. I remember, I think it was Nick Carnes. He was like, what song are we going to sing at this stop? Of course. Nick can't. He can't. He can't fart on keys. Oh, that's it. Anything else you want to add? [00:42:59] Speaker B: No, I just. I would say that if you've gone to an unaccredited school and you would like an accredited degree, my advice to you would be go, you know, send your transcripts to Luther Ross or whatever school. Other good schools, by the way. We're kind of like you are with churches around you. We're not in competition. [00:43:20] Speaker A: Sure. [00:43:21] Speaker B: You know, we can meet the needs. We have about a thousand students. Liberty has 140,000 students, you know, so we don't, you know. But if Luther Rice can help you or whatever school you want to apply to, send your transcript. [00:43:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:35] Speaker B: Some, Maybe all. Maybe none. You don't know until you try. [00:43:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:39] Speaker B: But I would say to that person who wants an accredited degree, at least try. And if you have to start over like I did, if you have to, just do it. I had a person say to me the other day, he said, I'm 60 years old and I'm thinking about getting a demon. What's your advice? I said, my advice to you is in three years, you're going to be 63 years old. You're going to be 63 with a demon, or you're going to be 63 without a demon. [00:44:09] Speaker A: Right. [00:44:09] Speaker B: Which one do you want? [00:44:11] Speaker A: Get it going. [00:44:12] Speaker B: Exactly right. So that's what. That's what I would say to anyone with an unaccredited degree. If you. If you want to get an accredited degree, just try. Send your transcripts. If you have to start over, start over. If they take some or all of it, then just move on to the next degree. [00:44:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And if you are attending one of those schools, you know, in the IFB world, Marcus, there are tons of churches that have a Bible school. We have them here in Rossville. Right, right. You know, where it's the secretary and the treasurer And Mama Joe and they're getting a degree and you know, they put on the cap and gown, they hand them a degree. It's, it's about as good as the RFP honorary doctor there. You know, if it's just to grow in knowledge, that's fine. I think there are enough good accredited schools out there that you can get something that's secured and it's going to last. Of course, you know, here on the RFP we've had Word of Life on in the last few weeks. They are a two year Bible school with Davidson College, with Cedarville University that you can get connected with, of course, Mission University. Mark Milioni, they're great friends of the podcast. They are doing phenomenal things. Mission University used to be Baptist Bible College. They've had a name change. Now they're accredited. Get in. And you know, maybe today this episode is nothing more than for you to get that encouragement to check the accreditation, to not waste your time or your money. [00:45:41] Speaker B: Right. [00:45:42] Speaker A: And then go. And all you got to do is send that transcript in. And I know that Marcus and them down at Luther Rice would love to get you in Word of Life, Mission University, Liberty Cedarville, Taco Falls, there's so many good schools out there that are doing it right. And so we want you to, we want you to get connected there. [00:45:59] Speaker B: Word of Life is a great friend to Luther Rice. [00:46:01] Speaker A: We love them. [00:46:02] Speaker B: They can do two years at Word of Life and then go right in to finish their bachelor's degree at Word of Life and go right in to finish your bachelor's degree at Luther Rice. [00:46:12] Speaker A: Oh, that's incredible. [00:46:12] Speaker B: 100%. We, and we've met with them and myself and our President, Dr. Stein Hilbert with folks from Word of Life and we are, we are partners in ministry. [00:46:21] Speaker A: It's incredible. We love word of life Dr. Locke and the whole crew over there, of course, I'm a big Word of Life fan. I'll wave the flag of Word of Life all day. Gonna be back up there the second week of July, New York camp. [00:46:34] Speaker B: Yep. [00:46:34] Speaker A: And they also have one at the coast down in Hudson, Florida. So there's plenty of good places that you can get connected with there. Man, what an incredible conversation it has been. Marcus, thank you for your time, your wisdom and your heart. For the next generation of church leaders, this conversation, it's been eye opening, honest, long overdue in the church circles that we have run in to our listeners. If you are a student, a parent, a pastor or someone just trying to figure out the next step in ministry or education. I hope today's episode has given you some clarity and some confidence. Accreditation isn't about chasing worldly approval. It's about stewardship, credibility, and making sure we equipped to rightly divide the word and lead with integrity. If you've ever been burned by a diploma mill that didn't open doors that you thought it would, you're not alone. The good news is it's never too late to keep growing, to keep learning and preparing for what God has called you to do. Thanks again to all of our Patreon supporters. You make this conversation like this possible. And if you haven't joined yet, head on over to patreon.com recovering fundamentalist podcast JC to partner with us. And until next time, keep breaking free, keep walking in grace, keep pursuing the truth. And we'll see you next week right here on the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. Love you kids. [00:48:58] Speaker B: SA Sam. [00:49:50] Speaker A: SA. [00:50:15] Speaker C: Sample.