177 - Discipleship: The Defining Mark with Special Guests Matt Dudley and Mark Milioni

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Hey, everybody. Thanks for tuning in to the recovering fundamentalist podcast. We're your host. That's Nathan. I'm JC, and thanks for being here. This is episode number five in our twelve episodes in 24. And if you haven't caught on yet, we're just doing one episode a month as opposed to one episode a week. And, you know, Nate, I gotta have mixed feelings about it. I liked recording every week, but I'm really enjoying this. Just once a month. It's like we're just backing up the truck and unloading. One time, once a month. What. What are your thoughts on it? [00:00:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with you 100%. I miss it. But honestly, we're struggling to record our one episode a month, so it's. It's very good for both of us. Being church planners doesn't leave us with a whole lot of time on our plate. And, uh, yeah, I. I miss it, but this is definitely, definitely the best for right now. [00:01:08] Speaker A: You're right. Life gets busy. I mean, 170 is this episode 177, and it's not going away. We're here and we're doing it, and I'm excited to. To be back on with you tonight. Tonight's episode is going to be a little bit interesting. We got a couple special guests on with us. We'll let you know who they are going to be here in just a moment. We want to get the banter out up front for those of you that actually listen to this, and don't skip ahead to the intro. But, Nate, we've got Israel coming up in January. [00:01:37] Speaker B: Yes. [00:01:38] Speaker A: And tonight, praying that it'll happen. [00:01:41] Speaker B: Yes, and tonight is a little preview of Israel, because Brian's not going to be with us, so it's just me. And you're right. Brian originally had a trip planned with, hey, maybe we can get him to go now, since their trip was canceled. But he had a trip for Hope church, and then that got canceled, and we rescheduled ours. I don't know if they've rescheduled theirs or not, but we're definitely going. [00:02:07] Speaker A: Lord willing, it's going to happen. January. I've got it right here. January 26 to February 3, 2025. We're going back to Israel. And, man, I'm super excited to get back. I actually, just a couple days ago, talked to the guys at Razouk's tattoo, where a lot of us went. And, you know, they're actually now in Greece. They're not even in Israel anymore. Did you know that? [00:02:32] Speaker B: I did not know that. [00:02:34] Speaker A: They've opened up a shop in Greece. And the shop in right there in the Jaffa gate right there in the old city is actually not even open right now. [00:02:43] Speaker B: Are Jason and Rachel ship going to go see Razouks? [00:02:46] Speaker A: You know what? That is a great. I didn't think of that. So our production coordinator here, they're heading to Greece. We're recording this on May 22, and they are on their way to Greece. I need to shoot them a text and tell them to go see Razouk's. That's awesome. [00:02:58] Speaker B: They can join the club. I mean, come on. [00:03:00] Speaker A: Yeah, buddy. So January, we're going to Israel, and we would love for you to sign up. Now, this is a pastor's trip. Um, last time we went, we took something like 38, 40 pastors. Um, it is awesome. It is just an incredible trip. That nine days that we were in country has literally changed my life. A different preacher because of being there and just seeing it come to life. It's absolutely incredible. And we would love for you to go. Your wife isn't invited. Um, she would have to pay the full price. You can go if you would like to, for her to go. But this is a pastor's crip. You need to go to recovering fundamentalist.org. click on the Israel tab when you go. There's a password that you put in. Nate, what's the password? I forgot. [00:03:44] Speaker B: Jan. Two five, all lowercase. [00:03:47] Speaker A: Two five, all lowercase J A n, 25. And that'll get you into the website to register, pay the down payment and going to go to Israel. It's going to be a great trip. I can't wait to get back. [00:03:59] Speaker B: Yep. And we do need to be in prayer for Israel and everything. The conflict that's still going on there. Pray that that'll come to peaceful resolution. Man, things are, things are going crazy over in the Middle east. The, the iranian president or whoever it was, his helicopter went down. Some tense times in the Middle east, but we are this. [00:04:21] Speaker A: If it doesn't happen in January, we'll just bump it up to the next year. So I hope and go with, this is going to be great. Here's something that is going to be happening. It's our meetup. It is for the sake of the gospel. Year three, it's going to be happening right here in Catoosa county at Hope Church in Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia. It's going to be November 1 and second. So that'll be Friday night. And then Saturday we'll have a morning and an afternoon session. And nate, I've already been hearing from a lot of people that have already hotels reserved. There's folks coming in from California, from Arizona to Texas, Florida, Mississippi, Arkansas, folks coming down from Missouri. And I've heard already a lot of folks coming in and we would love for you to be here. It is no, there's no charge. There's no registration. Housing is all on your own. We got a lot of hotels around here. There's a ton of Airbnbs. We got a battlefield about 300 yards away. So if you want to sleep up there with some civil war ghosts and green eyes, pitch you a tent and do it. It's going to be a lot of fun as some great singing, some great preaching and just community. We'd love for you to come and be with us. No registration needed. Just show up November 1 and second to Harker Road, Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia Hope church. [00:05:39] Speaker B: Man, are you going to do like the independent guys used to do, JC? Open up the Sunday school classes and let people sleep on the pews in the sanctuary. [00:05:46] Speaker C: Amen. [00:05:47] Speaker A: If you want to, you feel free. We better be careful. [00:05:51] Speaker B: You will have people take you up on that. [00:05:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. Actually, we're not going to do that. I don't know if want to sleep in this building. This is 120 year old building right here on the old post in the fort. And listen, there's. We're not going to talk about it on this episode, but there's some crazy things that happen in here. I mean, every time I walk in the door, I go, hey, Randy. That's what we've named it. It runs around. So I'm sitting here right now at 10:00 at night and I keep hearing, hearing stuff. So if you seem to do that, it's, it's little friendly. What are we talking about? All right, that is a lot of exciting things that we have coming up. Israel and the meetup. For the sake of the gospel, we'd love for you to be here with us. Nate. I'm super excited about today's episode. For our fifth in twelve episodes, in 24 for the month of May, we're taking a look back at two of our great friends, two of our friends of the podcast, two episodes that have had a lot, a lot of traction over the years. We have the president of Mission University. [00:07:00] Speaker C: Amen. [00:07:01] Speaker A: Milioni is with us today, and the pastor of the Ridge church in Missouri, it's Matt Dudley. He's here with us. So we're super excited about this episode. Y'all. Y'all fellas ready to get this show on the road? [00:07:14] Speaker B: I'm ready. [00:07:15] Speaker D: Let's do it. [00:07:19] Speaker C: Let's roll. [00:07:20] Speaker A: Let's go. The recovering fundamentalist podcast begins in three. [00:07:41] Speaker C: These podcasts, podcasts that sound like a conviction of beans or peas to me. [00:07:48] Speaker A: I'm podcast listen. And these recovering fundamentalists, they don't know the Bible either. What are the fundamentals? Inerrancy, virgin birth of Jesus Christ, substitutionary atonement, amen. Bodily resurrection of Christ, and the authenticity of miracles. Two, I am not a recovering fundamentalist. [00:08:08] Speaker D: They're everywhere. They're all over the Internet. They want to be, what do they call it? Recovering from fundamentalism. They're everywhere. And I think to myself, well, you were just stupid to begin with, if there's such a word. You're stupider now. [00:08:20] Speaker A: We ain't recovering from nothing, good and evil. [00:08:21] Speaker C: We're reviving from the Holy Ghost. [00:08:23] Speaker A: Somebody, shame and rock time. [00:08:27] Speaker B: Everybody wants to focus on recovering. Oh, you're recovering. Oh, you need help. [00:08:31] Speaker D: You need therapy. [00:08:31] Speaker B: You're recovering. Let's focus on fundamentalists. We're recovering fundamentalism back from people who have hijacked that. We are biblical family. [00:08:40] Speaker A: We are the fundamentalist man, that'll make a Baptist want to speak in tongues right there, boys. One, I'm going to tell you one thing. We better stay in the old paths. But what are the old paths? I've heard that my whole life and nobody's ever been able to tell me what the old paths or the old time religion really is. Because it's what ever era you overly romanticize in your mind as being when the church was right. [00:09:13] Speaker C: Like it, lump it, pump it, jump. [00:09:14] Speaker A: It, take it across the street and dump it. We've raised a generation that is ashamed of our forefathers and act like they were somehow done wrong in the way they were brought up and they were damaged and they were scarred because they were raised in a home that had standards and convictions and kept them on the old time way. [00:09:34] Speaker D: You got their number, boys. Y'all thought you started the podcast. You went and started the movement. [00:09:44] Speaker A: Thanks for joining us for the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. Make sure to stay tuned at the end of the show to hear more about the RFP sponsors. Now here's your host for the recovering fundamentalist podcast, Nathan Cravat, JC Groves, and Brian Edwards. Well, there we go. It's been a while since I've heard the updated intro. [00:10:09] Speaker B: Yeah, we haven't played that one in a while. We've been doing the other one and I figured I'd bring that one back because Dudley makes a cameo in that one. But as soon as we hear Dudley's voice, he just disappeared. He dropped out. [00:10:21] Speaker D: So shy. I'm just so shy. I couldn't stand to hear myself, man. [00:10:26] Speaker A: There's some voices on there. Sam Jones, uh, doing the. The hosting on that intro right there. He's now pastoring a church in South Carolina. That's awesome, man. And that was some great memories that a lot of those clips were from our time in Vegas. Uh, that was long, long time ago. [00:10:43] Speaker B: Was that 2021? [00:10:45] Speaker A: I don't know. It may have been three years ago. [00:10:47] Speaker D: Yeah, it was 21. [00:10:48] Speaker A: Yeah, it was 21. [00:10:50] Speaker B: Seems like ten years ago. [00:10:52] Speaker D: It really does, man. [00:10:54] Speaker A: Well, thanks for listening to the recovering fundamentalist podcast. We've got some of our good friends on the podcast with us tonight, and we just figured, hey, normally during the summer we take a little sabbatical, but we're not doing that this summer. We're going to have some of our friends on a little throwback and a catch up and see what's been going on in their world. President, Doctor Mark Millioni. Brother, prophet, evangelist, apostle. Oh, that's Greg. [00:11:21] Speaker D: Whoa, whoa. [00:11:23] Speaker A: It's. [00:11:24] Speaker B: So. [00:11:25] Speaker D: Why not? Let's do it, man. [00:11:28] Speaker A: A lot of changes happening over at Mission U, which is the former Baptist Bible college, is that right? [00:11:36] Speaker C: That's correct. It is quite a. Quite a time that this semester, this past semester was a historic time. [00:11:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:44] Speaker C: But it's gone very, very well. You know, there was a lot of wondering what's going on and why, and is this a last ditch effort to. But I couldn't be more excited about the future. We have really seen a great response, a lot of new students and a lot showing interest. So it's been a great semester. It's taken every day of my twelve years here to kind of get us to this point. It does take a long time. [00:12:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:14] Speaker C: But I'm excited, very excited with where we're at. [00:12:16] Speaker A: So correct me if I'm wrong, but y'all, y'all did more than just the name change. There's been some fundamental things that have happened as a result of becoming mission university. What's kind of the underlining, like, mission and vision and pressing forward, like, how much change and what? Because a lot of you've been taking some heat online. I mean, I've been seeing some social media stuff from folks that are like, oh, he's coming in and changing everything. But share with us a little bit of the. Of the excitement that's happening. More than just a name change. [00:12:48] Speaker C: Well, well, sure. And a lot of this again, even though it may be the first time, people are looking at us. A lot has been happening over the last number of years. So a lot of things, they just notice them now, but we've been doing them for a while. Some of the things that I think have been really attractive to people are we've added additional degrees. You know, for the first 20 plus years, we were pastors and missionaries at one time. You know, BBC was like the largest bible college in America and really growing and peaked in the mid seventies with the whole religious right and all that. But it was also about that time that our leaders wisely sought additional degrees because they saw not everybody that wants a Christian Bible college education is going to end up in full time ministry. So we've added degrees. We also sought accreditation back then. So being accredited is a huge thing when parents are looking for a quality school. And so we have really focused degrees that pastors have asked us for. You can come now and do criminal justice. You can do cybersecurity, you can do lots of things. We can do just about anything through a couple partnerships that we have with other colleges and that Covid made a lot of that possible, because when Covid hit, you used to have to have all kind of accrediting permission to do this and that with other colleges. But when Covid hit, they just said, you guys just work it out. And so we did. So we've worked out with a lot of other. We just did a partnership with a local college here in Springfield for engineering. We're signing a new partner partnership to do all kind of health services, health sciences, nursing, radiology, you know, all of those things. And so on top of that, you know, our big, you know, news that we get into the local news a lot for is our athletics. We have great. Not only do we have sports, you know, all kind of sports, but we're good. Yeah, we're very good. And I'm very proud of that. As I just spent all week long, I'm. I'm a little sunburnt from sitting out at some the World Series games this week. We finished fifth, which we were hoping for better. But you know what? Our program is three years old, and we've been in the World Series twice, so. So I'm very excited about that. [00:15:11] Speaker D: Love it. [00:15:12] Speaker A: I saw some of your tweets with the baseball team. Oh, yeah. [00:15:15] Speaker C: Yeah, most of the big m there. And, you know, mission you. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, mission you. [00:15:22] Speaker A: How's. How's enrollment looking? [00:15:25] Speaker C: So we've grown 20% the last three years. Each of the last three years. And we're going to go past that even next year. [00:15:32] Speaker B: Nice. [00:15:32] Speaker C: Very, very good. So we're really finally getting to a point where it really is difference making when you don't run very many and you grow 20%. It's good, but it's not a whole lot yet. But now as we're growing and still growing at that rate, it's a, it's been a big, big help to us. So we should have close to 450 next year. And I'm very pleased from, from where we were at and what we've been through, what we've overcome. We always have a big fellowship week or bible conference the week of graduation. And I spent my Monday night message. I did preach. I didn't try and exposit a passage. I just talked about why, why mission university. I talked about the name and I talked about how this is going to help students, this is going to help parents, this is going to help pastors, it's going to help everybody to be able to move forward and not have to explain to somebody why I have a business degree or whatever from a bible college as well as just. It's a great name. It is. Fits us. It's just a great name. A great URL. Our website is mission.edu and I'm very, very, you know, it's gone great. It's been a long process. But not only did I talk about the name, but I talked about the need. Yeah, you look at the leading headline for the last couple of months has been protests on university campuses, and we just don't do that. That's just not who we are. That's not how we live and operate. And parents are looking for a safe, conservative, biblical, worldview college that they can send their kids to and not have to worry. And every day I meet with students and their parents that come on campus and they just, so many parents are just so thankful that their kids can come there. Like, man, I'm thankful that you want to come here, but they're looking for that because they're scared to death to send their kids to a public university right now and they should be. [00:17:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, man, that's awesome. I think the name change is incredible. I love mission University. All your, all your logos, your sports uniforms, everything. The rebranding, man, y'all just absolutely knocked it out of the park. I just need to know what everybody else is wondering. I just need to know that you hadn't left the old time way. That's. That's what I need to hear from you. [00:17:59] Speaker C: I'm still old timey. Is that how you say it? [00:18:03] Speaker A: You know what? [00:18:04] Speaker C: I. I. When I. When I announced it, I made. I made sure everybody understood. I'm not a trendy guy. You know, I. I am not. What? [00:18:14] Speaker D: Cool. [00:18:15] Speaker C: I'm not, you know, they need to know. I got up and I said, I will proudly tell you, I am a suit wearing him singing, choir loving, hard preaching, rule keeping, hard working president and pastor. [00:18:26] Speaker A: Whoo. [00:18:27] Speaker C: I'm. That's who I am. And I'm proud of that, you know, but that doesn't mean we're not fresh and we're not relevant. Yeah, it was interesting. And you see, you know, you saw. I did take some. Some flack online, but, you know, I just thought. I just thought the world doesn't care at all about our name. [00:18:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:49] Speaker C: They don't care if we're here at all. They don't care if we exist at all. You know, who cares about the other independent fundamental Baptists? [00:18:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:57] Speaker C: And I got just some. Some crazy emails just, you know, accusing me of all kind of things. And I. One guy tell me I'd rather send my daughter to, you know, name to State university than your college. And I saw you. That's just idiotic. I mean, I'm for everybody. I'm for all the other christian colleges. Whether you agree with us or not, whether you're KJV only or not, I don't care. The world, our country needs more christian leaders. [00:19:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:28] Speaker A: So. [00:19:28] Speaker C: So can, you know, if that's. So I, you know, whatever. I just smile. We just move on, and God is. God is just doing great things here. I don't. I don't, you know, worry about all that stuff. They'd rather see us close than make changes that will reach more people and send more people out and not, you know. [00:19:48] Speaker A: Well, I'll tell you this, from seeing some of the chatter online, it's. It's just the normal talking heads that are just doing clickbait of thing. And in the words of this guy that we had on the podcast a while back, lions don't worry about the opinions of mice and man. One of the best things you've ever said, and I absolutely love that. But, you know, one of the reasons we wanted to have you on today is that we're. We've kind of had this trend over the last two episodes with the president, former president from Bob Jones, former President Al Z. Anderson. I was like, I listen to him. He's our buddy. We feel like we're part of this process because we had you on when, you know, and spent some time with you. All three of us have spoken, have. Have spoken in chapel, and we're invested in what God is doing there and just seeing your heart. You're one of the realest dudes out there. And, you know, I mean, just being a president at down to earth and getting to spend a lot of time with you and just seeing how you love the students there, knowing that it's more than just a name change. There's some part behind that, and it really is connect students from all walks of life to life in Christ and to see them go out and reach the world. And so I'm excited for you. And, you know, we just wanted to celebrate because we've been, like. We've been part of the process. Like, is the name change happened yet? Is it going through? And I'm. I'm just thrilled for you. [00:21:04] Speaker C: Well, thank you. It is fun. It's fun to be here with you guys. And I've been through this with you, you know, and from. From early on, you've been my friends, and thank you for that. Thank you. I'm excited about what you guys are doing and your church plants and. And the thing that I've always loved is you guys are all pastors. [00:21:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:21] Speaker C: And. And so am I. I still am. And love it. [00:21:24] Speaker A: That's it. [00:21:25] Speaker B: Well, I'll. I'll never forget when we met you in Bourbon, Missouri. [00:21:30] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:21:30] Speaker B: Meet up and, like, we had no idea who you were. [00:21:35] Speaker C: I know. I tried to hide. [00:21:36] Speaker B: You said you were the president of the college, and. And we were just like, what. What are you doing here? And then just to hear your story and meet your wife, man, you guys have just been really encouraging to us and even on a personal level, getting to come out there and spend some time with you. And my wife loves your wife, and we just. We value you guys. You've been encouragement to us, and I know that a lot of the people that listen to the podcast have also been encouraged hearing that things are changing, things are happening, and we're not leaving the gospel. We're leaning more into the gospel, and we're all about the mission, but we. We definitely want to major on what the Bible majors on. [00:22:22] Speaker C: Right. I agree. And I, again, that is something people can be assured of, is that we're still a Bible college. We were keeping the name Baptist Bible College for our ministry and Bible department. That is my heart. I want to see more. But the reality is, very few are choosing full time ministry as their career or their vocation. So many come and they'll end up as great laymen, great lay women. And so hopefully we can help be a part of all of that as well. But it's just a reality that we need to see more in ministry. So I'm doing everything I can to make this thing work so that we'll continue to see more, more being trained, no matter what, what, where they end up in their life, so. [00:23:06] Speaker A: Well, you're doing a great job. [00:23:08] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:23:09] Speaker B: You are. I was in a meeting the other day with one of the southern Baptist Bible colleges, one of the guys that's on the board, he has something to do with the board and is involved in the decision making. And some pastors were hitting him with some pretty difficult questions, basically saying, you know, why are, why are people not going into ministry? Why are we not seeing as many students in Bible colleges? And he just stopped and said exactly what I was thinking. He turned it back around on the pastors in the room because it was a pastor's group. And he said, guys, it's not a Bible college's job to raise up and disciple the next generation of pastors. It's pastor's job. It's church's job to do that and to send them to the Bible college. And as, as this whole season that we're doing is about discipleship. And as a pastor, and I know these, these other guys, we're, we're about discipling men and women to use their gifts for the kingdom of God. And we do need more missionaries. We do need more pastors, but I believe that starts at a local church level. And, uh, I'm thankful that they're, they're strong christian universities like yours, like mission University. [00:24:24] Speaker C: Let me tell you, let me tell you this story really quickly. Just today, I picked up from hobby lobby. I had my PhD degree framed. I just got that this past semester. [00:24:36] Speaker B: Nice. [00:24:36] Speaker C: So I was already. I already had one, but I got, I got one. And my focus was identifying the factors of those that choose identifying the factors of influence of those that choose ministry as their vocation. And so, identified six things. These are the things that are true in a majority of people that choose ministry as their vocation. Let me real quickly, number one was a mentor, and I used the word mentor, but everybody I interviewed translated that into meaning pastor. Either a pastor or youth pastor that shows personal interest. A pastor or youth pastor that has a young person get involved in ministry, have them do ministry early on, spends time with them, encourages them, talks about college, talks about how they see God using their life in ministry and then challenges them, gives them a specific challenge. So being a pastor that does, that has to happen. They're from good families. God can use anybody. A lot of people from the other side of the tracks that may have rough life get called a mystery, too. By and large, it's people that have a good family, family, a good christian family, as well as they have a good church experience. And you know what? I didn't set out to see these things when I began the study, but these are the, from the lips of people that I interviewed, they had a good church experience. Now, a lot of what you guys talk about sees the other side. And so it's important to understand if you have a good church experience as a young person that influences you towards considering ministry. Some of the other things are you have some kind of a spiritual experience with you and God. And one of the things that came out that I didn't anticipate, almost everybody that I talked to that ended up in full time ministry is from a small church. [00:26:32] Speaker B: Wow. [00:26:33] Speaker C: Think about that. [00:26:34] Speaker A: That's awesome. [00:26:35] Speaker C: I don't understand all the details. I think that's another study that somebody needs to do. You think about it. That's a church where the pastor has time for you. Yeah, that's a church where the pastor gets you involved in ministry. That's a church where the pastor knows your family. It's just interesting. I wonder if there really is good data on who you see in ministry. So that's my heart is to see pastors. I love it. I love pastors. I love what they're there. My hope is by doing what we did at Mission University, it will help us grow all the other programs so I can have a very strong and healthy ministry department. That's why I do this. [00:27:13] Speaker B: Awesome. [00:27:14] Speaker A: I do have a couple questions. One, I just want to remind you that you were my microjoy at that meetup on that Saturday morning there. I got to know, is your PhD hanging right next to your RFP? Honorary doctorate. [00:27:30] Speaker C: Oh, well, of course. [00:27:33] Speaker A: Good, good. Oh, man. Well, speaking of bourbon history, do what? [00:27:40] Speaker C: I told a lie. [00:27:43] Speaker A: Speaking of Bourbon, Missouri, we met you at our first meetup. Actually, second meetup up in Bourbon, Missouri. And one of the reasons we ended up in Bourbon, Missouri was because of a pastor in Bourbon, Missouri. A good friend of ours, a good friend of. The podcast is a singing, uh, preaching, former independent, fundamental Bible believing, sin, hate, and shoot hell with the water pistol, King James version. Only Baptist pastor, the brother Matt Dudley. Welcome to the RFP back to the RFP. [00:28:18] Speaker D: Thanks. Thanks for having me back, Matt. [00:28:21] Speaker B: I think you've done as almost as many episodes as I have. You've been on here three or four times, haven't you? [00:28:27] Speaker D: Yeah, I think so. [00:28:29] Speaker A: I'm pretty sure there was four. This is number four in a row, right? [00:28:32] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:28:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:33] Speaker B: Didn't we take the gloves off one time or something? I mean. [00:28:37] Speaker D: Yeah. Was that us? Was that. [00:28:38] Speaker B: I think that was you. [00:28:40] Speaker A: You preach sermon. Remember when we did sermons and people were like, those aren't podcasts. [00:28:45] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [00:28:46] Speaker B: Oh, speaking. [00:28:47] Speaker D: I had Covid speak. [00:28:49] Speaker B: Yeah, you did. Speaking of Matt Dudley Sermons, I just. I got a. I got a beef with you, Matt. We got to get it out right here in public, in front of everybody. I got a guy going to my church, one of my best friends, Brandon Fisher. And all I hear from Brandon Fisher these days is Matt Dudley this and Matt Dudley that. He sends me sermon clips of yours. He absolutely loves him some Matt Dudley. And so I really don't have a bunch. [00:29:20] Speaker D: I love him, too. [00:29:22] Speaker B: Brandon is awesome, man. He is a man's man. He's a fly fisherman. Fisherman. And dude does music, all kinds of stuff. Just a cool guy. And he. He is. I think he said this week you're in, like, his top three preachers. He's just. We had an elders training meeting tonight, and Matt Dudley got brought up. He's like, man, Matt Dudley's been throwing some fire. So just keep doing what you're doing, bro. It's working, people. [00:29:45] Speaker D: I'm glad I have a fan. [00:29:46] Speaker B: North Carolina. [00:29:49] Speaker D: It's good to have a fan. [00:29:51] Speaker A: Well, a lot has changed in your world since the last time we had you on the podcast. And the ridge church is just continuing to grow, and God is blessing there. Give us an update. What's been going on with you, buddy, brother, buddy, baby, baby, buddy and brother all mixed up in one grow. Baby, buddy. [00:30:10] Speaker D: Oh, well, you know, when you guys were here for the meetup in. What year was that? When do we do that? [00:30:18] Speaker B: 22, I think so. [00:30:20] Speaker A: I really don't know. [00:30:21] Speaker D: Something like that. So we were, you know, we were in that. That building. It was an 8500 square foot building, and we had outgrown it. We outgrew it before COVID and then. And then we outgrew it again after we opened back up after Covid and all the shutdowns. And so we were. We were running, you know, 500. 5600 in an 8500 square foot building. It was just tough. And that was in two services. So, um, man, we'd put building plans together. We were trying to. We tried to buy just about every building in town that was available. We thought about buying the movie theater, and it was going to anyway. Cost was just ridiculous. So we just kept praying and waiting on the Lord. And there's a church on the opposite side of town, 22,000 square foot building that I had heard was for sale. And so I text the pastor and said, hey, man, it's probably just a rumor, but I heard you guys might be selling your building. And he said, yeah, no. He goes, it's just a rumor. We're not interested in selling. I said, okay, well, if you guys change your mind, we would definitely be interested. Kind of like, you know, all right, thanks, but we're not selling. So I said, okay. Anyway, just a few days later, I ran into him in town and just kind of joking around. I was like, hey, dude, you know, so, you know, if you decide you want to swap buildings or merge churches or something, you know, let me know. And I was joking. But he goes, now we can talk about that. I go, oh, okay. So we did. We started to talk, and he got his elders together with my, my team of pastors and very long, arduous process. We, in fact, hired. I didn't know this, but there's a ministry out there that specializes in emerging churches. We hired them. It's called the unstuck group. Flew a guy in from Arizona, and $5,000 later, he did an assessment of our two churches and said, I don't see why you guys couldn't make this happen. And so, very long story short, we stuck to our guns on a lot of things. I basically just told them, and I was very, very honest to the whole process. I said, look, man, we ain't changing. But, yeah, all jokes aside, I did say, I mean, we went over doctrine, of course, the big, you know, the big doctrines, the fundamentals of the faith, and we were aligned, surprisingly. I really didn't think we would be on a couple points, but. But we were. And then started getting into more cultural type things, and they were very different culturally than we are. And I just said, I go, man, we do things the way we do it for a reason. And literally, I said, we're not. There's just, we're just not going to change that. And, you know, so basically, their church, we merged the two, but it's the ridge church. It's our leadership. That gentleman who was the senior pastor is now our missions pastor, and he's doing a great job. We, we kept their staff on. So I inherited a lot of staff. They, oddly, their church was running about 80 people and they had about as. I think they had as many staff members as I did, which was kind of crazy. But we kept their staff on and they've been. It's been awesome. And the church has just exploded even more. And so I don't like filling out numbers, but it's been. It's been wild. So we're. We are currently so, again, this is. This is a 22,000 square foot building that we are. That we're in. And we've already outgrown it. And we are. We're adding 190 seat stadium seating balcony beginning in September. Wow. So we're going to add 190 chairs. Yep. It's been wild, man. It's been crazy. But, man, God's good. And, you know, we've. From the beginning, we've existed genuinely to reach the lost and the broken in our community. Our mantra is we're broken people for broken people. And I actually had an independent Baptist preacher tell me years ago when I started our first. Started my first church in 2005 when I was 25. And he said to me, he's passed on now. Brother Willard Thomas said to me, he said, if you'll reach the people nobody wants, God will give you the people everybody wants. And we have reached just like I said, just the down and outers and the broken and the hurting. And then God has added the most amazing people in our community through the church. And we've got some just amazing, amazing people. Most giving church I've ever been a part of. So, yeah, it's awesome, dude. It's been good. [00:35:25] Speaker B: That's amazing. I love it when you're faithful and you stay true through the difficult seasons. Cause I know you've been through some difficult seasons that God will bless you. And it's awesome seeing how he's using you and seeing the impact you're having on people's lives. [00:35:42] Speaker D: Yeah, it's awesome, dude. [00:35:44] Speaker B: And it was good to see you in Atlanta a couple weeks ago. [00:35:47] Speaker D: I know, bro. That was. That was a treat. [00:35:51] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. [00:35:52] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:35:52] Speaker B: My little sign I had for you in the airport. [00:35:55] Speaker D: That was beautiful. I felt very. Yeah, very important, what it said. [00:36:02] Speaker B: I don't. Reverend. Reverend Dudley or something like that. [00:36:06] Speaker D: I have a picture of it. It was a monumental moment in my life. [00:36:12] Speaker B: I had a scrolling led app on my phone, JC. And I was standing there waiting for it. Yeah, it was awesome. [00:36:19] Speaker A: That's. [00:36:20] Speaker D: Yeah. And JC was hurting. [00:36:23] Speaker B: Oh, yes, bro. [00:36:25] Speaker A: I'm so thankful that a month later, we're at a whole different level. That was a rough day. [00:36:31] Speaker D: I felt bad for you. [00:36:32] Speaker A: Three abscessed teeth. Oh, so glad those are out of my head. [00:36:36] Speaker B: No sleep. [00:36:37] Speaker A: No sleep. Pain. Oh, my goodness. But they pulled them teeth. Boy, I'm telling y'all, it's weird to eat now, but I'm so thankful they put bone graft in there. And so I've got three, two more months. Three, two and a half more months of healing, and then they're going to go in and put the implants in. But I'm just. I'm so thankful to not have two huge abscessed knots on my gums. Sorry if I was kind of out of it, Dudley, on that day. [00:37:02] Speaker D: No, dude, I didn't mind. I was just happy to see you. [00:37:05] Speaker A: And we got to eat some good old papacito. [00:37:07] Speaker D: And it didn't slow. It did not slow us down. [00:37:09] Speaker B: Nope. [00:37:10] Speaker D: It didn't at all. [00:37:11] Speaker A: If you're ever in Atlanta, you got to go to papacitos. That is a great. [00:37:16] Speaker D: I would go back to Atlanta just for that. [00:37:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I would, too. [00:37:20] Speaker A: I may go tomorrow. [00:37:23] Speaker B: You're the closest to it of all of us. Jason, buddy, it's about 4 hours for me. You're like an hour and a half. [00:37:29] Speaker A: Fun fact. My wife. My birthday is on Saturday, and my wife was like, where do you want to eat? And I said, let's go to papacitos. [00:37:35] Speaker B: Nice. [00:37:36] Speaker A: A little too far. How about we do something in Chattanooga? [00:37:39] Speaker B: I was like, okay, chewies. [00:37:42] Speaker A: Yeah, we're going to go to the boathouse. You ever been there, Nate? [00:37:44] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I love that place. [00:37:45] Speaker A: I've never eaten there. I've looked at it my whole life. They were good there on the river. [00:37:48] Speaker B: So good. Yep. Well, guys, as you know, this season is all about discipleship. And the thing we want to talk about tonight comes from John, chapter 13. But honestly, this group of men illustrates exactly what this is all about, because you guys have been to me and I know for each other what this verse is talking about. Jesus says in John, chapter 13, verse 34, a new commandment I give to you, that you love one another even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. And then he adds this. By this, all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. So the thing I really want to bring out about this and want to ask you guys about is that Jesus is obviously saying that we need each other. If discipleship is truly going to happen, it's got to happen within the context of love for one another. And we need each other to truly be the kind of disciples that God is calling us to be. And we've got to love one another if we hope to make disciples. So discipleship is. Is key. That's what the great commission is all about. That's what. That's what the gospel is all about, making disciples of Jesus Christ. And he told us that we're to love one another, not the way that this world thinks about love, not the way that we like to think about love sometimes, but as he loved us, that's how we're to love one another. And this will be the defining mark, which I think flies in the face of the independent fundamentalist culture that we grew up in, because the defining mark was anything but love for one another. [00:39:42] Speaker C: The, the. [00:39:43] Speaker B: One of the defining characteristics of the IFB I grew up in was fighting and church splitting and being militant and being ultra hyper separatist. And we could do anything except get along with each other. And yet Jesus himself said, hey, this is a commandment I'm giving you, and it's a new commandment because it's. You're. You're basing your love on the kind of love I've loved you with, and this will be what sets you apart. So let's just talk about that for a little bit tonight. That discipleship includes loving one another. And you've got to have community, you've got to have brothers that hold you accountable in this. [00:40:25] Speaker C: After pastoring for decades, and I looked at every kind of discipleship program or book there was, and I think for me, I finally realized, you know, what affected the men the most that I spend my life trying to reach was when I spent time with them. And the passages you just read, that's exactly what's happening there. Jesus is spending a meal with them. It's the last supper. But they gathered for a meal, and I began to realize I was discipling guys, and they didn't even realize it. And I didn't even realize what I was doing until later. When I look back, and it's discipleship, to me is t I m e. That's how you spell it. You spend time, whether it's just a simple conversation, whether it's a phone call, some texts, but you spend time with the guy. That's what. That's what it is to me. That's the main thing that I. I think the main element that you have to have. [00:41:30] Speaker B: That's a great point, because I seriously don't think Jesus had a curriculum. He was following to make disciples. He just did life with those guys for three years. They were sitting around campfires together, fishing together, preaching together, traveling, spending time. That's good, Mark. [00:41:50] Speaker D: Well, I agree with Mark. I think relationships is. I like the word organic. I like things just to grow and mature naturally. I think sometimes we try to force discipleship. Not that. Not that there aren't basics, you know what I'm saying? Like, I think there are basic truths that once a person has trusted Christ and been saved, that, that they need to walk through and understand and begin to grasp. But as far as the walk with God is concerned, it is just building relationships with people. And I was thinking exactly what Mark said is that often it happens, I was discipled and I didn't even know it. You know, I was being discipled. And, and I think a lot of times that's just how it goes. You just spend your, you spend your time with people, and, and new converts are exciting. You know, they're exciting to be around because they've got so many questions and everything is so new and so fresh to them. And in my experience in discipleship, I mean, I, I learned a lot of things all the wrong ways, you know? And so it's, it's nice now to be at this place in my life where I feel, you know, a little more free just to let the Holy Spirit work in people and let the Holy Spirit work through me and people. And again, let those, let those conversations come naturally and let the spirit of God develop that individual in his walk and just watch God mature them. And again, you just naturally have conversations and naturally help walk them through why we believe what we believe. And, you know what the Bible means when it says this. And, you know, so, yeah, that's spot on. [00:43:36] Speaker C: Having healthy male friends has been so important to my life in ministry, surrounded by great guys, but it didn't happen, you know, all at once, but one at a time. And every one of them is different. Every one of those guys has a different strength and ability into my own life. But spending time with those guys, best times I've ever had in ministry, and I love it. I look back on all the men that were so powerful in my life, and I did not consider it discipleship or counseling until later in my ministry when I realized that's what happened there. That's how it happened. And, yeah, we talked about the Bible. We talked about marriage. We talked about belief. We talked about laughing at things and, you know, but it was, it was, it was the time and relationship that really, I think that's what still stands out to them. [00:44:42] Speaker B: That's good. Hey, Dudley, let's. Let's take the gloves off for just a second because I like it when you do that. But what would you say was the defining mark of the church that you started preaching in when you were independent, fundamental, King James, only Baptist. Could you look back and say love for one another was the defining mark or was it something else? [00:45:09] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. So I don't know if my. I think my story is a little unique to some because I got saved out of such a radical lifestyle. And God did change me dramatically very quickly. So, you know, I was 19 when I. When I got saved and felt God was calling me to preach. So I got saved in January of 99. I was in Bible college by that fall. Now, I did not go to an independent baptist college. My first semester, I went to a missionary Baptist college in Conway, Arkansas. But I had been given a lot of. I've been given old Jack Heil's cassette tapes and Jack Scott and Phil Kidd and, gosh, John Rice, Clyde box. I'm trying to think. I just. I had an array. And to this day, I cannot remember who gave me those cassettes. I want to go back and whip them. But anyway, I legit don't know where they came from. But, you know, the college I started at was not King James only. So I transferred to an independent Baptist college, which was a very much a culture shock for me, but it was marked by, you know, soul winning, running buses, KJV only separation. And the college where I went, and I won't name names, but we had a. They would do a monthly preacher boys service, and we'd actually travel to different churches. And it was popcorn preaching. And the preachers would all get five to seven minutes, depending on how many guys were preaching that night. And I remember one, at one of the meetings, we were all preaching, and a guy, another guy in college asked me what I was preaching on, and I jokingly said, the love of God. And we both laughed because that was. That was considered a liberal, you know, limp wristed, you know, you. And had I got. It's laughable now, but had I gotten up and preached on that, I would have been called a liberal, you know, for not getting up because there were certain things you just. You just preached. You know, you got up and hit the king. Every single one of us preacher boys was going to hit on the king. James, you're going to hit on soul winning. You're going to hit on a man ought to look like a man and a woman ought to look like a woman. I mean, just all that, you know, that mantra and, yeah, dude, so, no, it was not. And I remember, again, being a new Christian, I was pretty much discipled in an independent Baptist college. And so I just remember how foreign that all was to me, just the even. Just the conflicts among the students, just how hateful and how much jealousy there was and, you know, who was getting the most attention from which professors and, you know, just a lot of jockeying in, you know, this competitive spirit, even when it comes to preaching, who preached the hardest and the loudest and who got the most shouts and the most amens. And, yeah, dude, it was. It definitely was not. Was not. Was not marked by grace or kindness or love or any of the fruits of the spirit, frankly. And I thought when you read that text where Jesus said a new commandment, I thought, man, if we're going to be legalistic, we should be legalistic about that command, man. That we love, that we love one another, and loving each other is more important than being right all the time. And again, that doesn't mean that we no longer stand for the gospel, that we no longer stand for the purity of God's word and all of the actual fundamentals. But, man, compassion has to enter the equation at some point. And just genuine kindness, just being kind and compassionate and gracious is a beautiful thing. And I've found that people who disagree with me, not in the independent world, but lost people, because obviously, I take stands on things that are not popular in culture. And I found that even people who diametrically oppose my social and moral positions on different things can at least respect the fact that I'm not mean to them and can respect the fact that I still treat them with respect and grace. And you get a lot further with sharing the truth of God's word with people that way. [00:49:58] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. [00:50:00] Speaker C: Amen. Amen. That's good. [00:50:02] Speaker D: You know, one of the things that, on the subject of discipleship that I feel we have mishandled the scriptures in a lot of ways, is when we conflate the subject of discipleship with salvation. And what I mean by that is, I can't tell you how many times I've heard a sermon or read a track or a blog that will be. Will use passages like where Jesus said, if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me. And I've heard that used in reference to being saved. You know, if you're going to be saved, you have to deny yourself if you're going to be saved. You have to take up your cross and follow me. And we, and we, and we bleed these two subjects together when there is a vast difference between what the Bible says about being a disciple of Christ and being born again by the spirit of God, salvation is a gift received, and it's not us taking up our cross. Discipleship is us taking up our cross, but salvation is receiving the free gift. And the fact that Christ took up his cross on our behalf. And I think that's dangerous. You know, I know it's dangerous because then you're, you know, you're, you're, you've got the cart before the horse. And so I don't know if you guys have ever encountered or heard anything like that, but I think that's a gross misapplication of two very different topics. Because, again, salvation is a gift, and it's not of works in any way, shape or form on our part. But discipleship is a, you know, it does take discipline, it does take cross bearing. It does take denying yourself, denying your flesh, and learning to walk in the spirit. So I think that's an important topic within the subject of discipleship. [00:51:55] Speaker C: Sometimes you never get that opportunity with guys until you are there when they're going through something. And that's when you get to talk about how God gets you through this or you walk through, you know, a promise or a passage where Jesus challenges us to just trust him. And again, being there time when they're going through a tough time comes after, after the gospel. But, but the discipleship process is so it's very real life, very raw. [00:52:33] Speaker D: Right. [00:52:33] Speaker C: Very honest, and it, and it never. [00:52:37] Speaker D: Ends this side of heaven. Yeah, we're all still disciples. Even though God lets us lead and teach and preach, you know, we're still in this process of growth. [00:52:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm studying this passage. To preach it tomorrow, actually, is why this was on my heart so much tonight. When Jesus says, even as I have loved you, that you ought also to love one another. There's two meanings of what Jesus is talking about there. One application of that word is that we obviously love as he loved us, as he modeled in us. But another way of looking at this, and I think it's really the key of what he's saying, is that his love is actually what enables us to love. It's his love in us that enables us to love one another, because this is a supernatural love. This is the love of God. And as you guys know, it is not easy to love people you go to church with. Sometimes it's not easy to love people that you're discipling. Sometimes like it. It is a tough process. I told people at the church here Sunday that the longer you know me, the probably, probably the less you're going to like me because you're going to see more and more of my flaws, more and more of my failures. You'll see me in a situation where it's not very flattering and I don't live up to who you thought I was as the quote unquote pastor. And everybody knows pastors are just perfect. They don't have any problems whatsoever. [00:54:09] Speaker D: Right. [00:54:09] Speaker B: But a lot of people think that until they get around us. And it takes a supernatural love to be marked by the kind of love that Jesus loved. And the only way we can love like Jesus is if his power is in us, enabling to love, he told the disciples, abide in me, and that's the only way we can love. The way he loves is if we are abiding in him. And then right after this, what does Jesus do? He wraps a cloth around himself, he gets down, he washes his disciples feet. And it's just such a powerful picture of man. [00:54:49] Speaker D: Don't, don't you think that's why it's so important to just be real, though, with people? Just speaking of, I've, you know, and I can out say this just to be. To be critical for the sake of being critical. But every preacher in my past that. That I admired from a distance, the closer I got, the less I respected them. And I just. Men, years ago, I just felt so convicted that I didn't want that to be me. I would rather. I almost rather be a little bit just raw and just be real and upfront and honest with people about who you are. And I'm not saying put all your flaws on display 24/7 but at the same time, I would rather people respect me more the closer they get to me. [00:55:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:42] Speaker D: You know, and I think that, again, I think that's a part of discipleship. If we're discipling people, you know, it's. It's. We're doing a disservice if we. If we project this image of Christianity that being a Christian means that, you know, that we just, I don't know, you know, just sort of put on this facade and put on an air of something that we're not. [00:56:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:06] Speaker D: And genuinely just letting the grace of God flow through us. And again, being honest about our flaws and our struggles and being transparent I think is huge, dude, because people need to see that. People need to know that we're real. They need to know that we struggle, that we hurt, that we have bad days, that we get aggravated and frustrated, maybe say things we shouldn't sometimes, but then also be man enough and christian enough to. To come back and say, you know what, man? I. You know, I shouldn't have gotten upset. I shouldn't have said that. And I, you know, I was just having a rough time, and I apologize, you know, and just showing that. Just that realness, that being a Christ. A Christ follower does not mean that. That we're just, you know, some. Some facade of a person. [00:56:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:52] Speaker D: Walking around. [00:56:53] Speaker B: When you look at Jesus disciples, they were a mess. They're, like, trying to call fire down from heaven on people and fighting for first place. And they were. Jesus had to tell them this because they weren't doing it like they were. They were a mess when he was there. And, you know, Dudley, I hear you're. You're. You're probably the authority on this in this group, but I wonder if the disciples ever cussed. [00:57:22] Speaker D: Well, we know Simon Peter did. [00:57:25] Speaker C: Yeah. At least. [00:57:26] Speaker D: At least he did. [00:57:26] Speaker B: You know, I've been seeing some things popping up about you on. On social media that you preached a sermon on cussing or something like that. Is that. [00:57:34] Speaker D: No, I didn't preach a sermon on cussing, but. Oh, man. Yeah, I've been taking some heat just because I said I'd rather hear you cuss than gossip. [00:57:45] Speaker B: Ooh. [00:57:47] Speaker D: And I would. And I would double down on that statement. Yeah. And again, talking about conflation of terms, people take the word curse in the Bible to be the same as modern day cussing. And again, I'm not advocating that christians cuss, but what James was talking about out of the same mouth proceeds blessing and cursing. He was not referring to four letter words. He was referring to the way that we speak to people in the way that we speak about people. And that's what he was when he said that the tongue is an unruly evil full of deadly poison. He was definitely not talking about what we call cuss words. He was talking about the fact that christians are just outright cruel, and christians are some of the biggest gossips and busybodies. And you know, what has split every church, what's been the cause of every church split that any of us have ever witnessed? It's been. It's been people running their mouth. [00:58:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:54] Speaker D: And talking about people instead of talking to people. So, yeah, I'll double down on that statement. And I've been called a heretic this week. One guy on, I don't know if it's tick tock or facebook, but he said. He said, this guy is a false prophet. He's going to be in hell. And. Yeah. Wow. Just for saying that, I think Moses. [00:59:17] Speaker C: Would agree with you. [00:59:18] Speaker A: Yeah, he would. [00:59:19] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're. We're so stuck. We're so soft. You know, we just. I mean, people. Christians are so easily triggered and just get bent out of shape over the stupidest stuff. And I push the line, I'll be the first to admit it. [00:59:37] Speaker C: Over everybody else's stuff. [00:59:39] Speaker A: That's it. [00:59:40] Speaker C: None of their business. [00:59:41] Speaker D: Yeah, right. Well, and that's. I was find it funny when people say, you know, preachers don't preach on sin anymore. Well, this one does. The problem is they just don't like the sins that I preach on. They'd rather me preach on the sins that are taking place in Hollywood or, you know, and other. Other places that are not relevant to our culture. [01:00:01] Speaker A: Right. [01:00:02] Speaker D: But when you start calling it. Calling out sin, that actually takes place within church culture and Christianity. You know, they don't like that. In the town that I pastor in, the. The drug addicts, drug dealers, the drunks, the people that would not darken the door of any other church in town love me to death. I've. I've got their respect and, you know, but it's the church people that. That, you know, we were okay as long as our church wasn't bigger than theirs. And now, you know, and now they cut us down. They make up. I mean, I'm. You know, they're the rumor around towns. I make half a million dollars a year. If I made. If I made half of that, I'd be happy. Yeah. I would be going to Israel. I'd be going to Israel with you guys in January for sure. Twice if I made half a million a year. Yeah. [01:00:58] Speaker A: You know, something, Dudley, that you're saying goes back to something that Mark was saying earlier about young people going into ministry. I think they've been given this facade of church and Christianity, and they've seen what is happening in church, and they're like, I don't want anything to do with that. I mean, this generation is the most realist generation. I mean, they've heard preach from the pulpit. They've listened to stuff, and they can google it right there in real time. They're like, no, that's. That's actually not right. You know, I mean, that's not real there's also this, like, double standard of things that are proved from the pulpit and then live different outside of the church. And they're like, why would I want to be part of that? I mean, I can go something that's real, a cause that has some backing that I could rally around. That's why we see the protest and things like that, you know, and that's where, you know, we've said it on here a lot. Be the same person publicly and privately. That's integrity they look for. [01:01:55] Speaker C: It has to be. [01:01:56] Speaker A: And they, they can spot a fake a phone. [01:01:59] Speaker D: Oh, yeah, yeah. [01:02:00] Speaker A: And I really feel like some of the epidemic that we have, not pandemic, the epidemic that we have of the lack of people going into ministry is because they've just seen fake christians, pastors, ministry leaders, and they're like, I don't want anything to do with that, man. [01:02:17] Speaker D: I think that's why people are leaving the church. I agree that, you know, I'm saying, I mean, churches are generally in decline nationwide. [01:02:25] Speaker C: Not many church growth books being written today. [01:02:27] Speaker D: No, no. And I think that's got a lot to do with it. That. And we blame it in all kinds of things, but I think it's the fact that people are just sick, sick of plastic, phony baloney christians. Yeah, and you're right, man. You know, they, I think my generation and moving forward, and that's not to exclude, you know, generations older than I am, but I think that millennials and beyond are just tired of it, just genuinely. And I, dude, I saw it growing up. You know, I did grow up in church, and that was one of the things when I hit about 13 years old, that I just, you know, I mean, I would. I don't know, it's kind of personal, but I would sit in church and then my parents would go over to, you know, somebody's house after church, and they'd sit there and pick everybody apart. Did you see what so and so was wearing? And you hear so and so, you know, they're having problems and I bet they're going to get to, man, I sat as a kid and freaking listen to that. And I was like, I hit about 13. I said, this whole thing is a joke and there's nothing real about this. And, and I just walked away from it. That's why as a. And I was lost, you know, but, but as a teenager, I wouldn't, I would not have anything to do with church because of that very reason. And that's, that's a problem. You know, that's a bigger problem than people cussing. And I'm telling you straight up, straight up, I've never, of all the things I've heard, and I talked to a lot of unchurched people, I've never had a person, a lost person, a person outside of church say to me, well, I don't go to church because I work with a christian that cusses. Never heard that once. I have heard more times than I can count. You know, I was going to this church and, man, this family wouldn't talk to that family. And. And they were always, you know, gossiping, talking about people, and, you know, I just think they're all bunch of fake hypocrites. It's like, yeah, okay, well, I get it. You know, we're not all that way, but I get it. [01:04:29] Speaker A: That was honestly, I mean, let's get real. That was a hesitation we had even starting this podcast was, is this just going to look like it's a nit picky? Let's sit here and point the finger and call out all the stuff that's going on and in the church. And if a non Christian were to listen to this podcast, they, one, would be lost. Two, they'd be like, I'm never getting involved in anything that is IFB. But three, I think really what it boiled down to was the fact that we wanted to help and encourage people who have been affected negatively by this trash and help them continue to walk the way of Jesus. You know, I'm studying psalms ten right now. We're walking through the psalms this summer, and I think one of the. One of the areas where we tend to drop the ball as the church as a whole is we don't let people ask questions anymore. We just expect them to know and to walk and to live and to breathe and act churchy, whatever that is. All of us growing up, we knew the standard that you had to live when you walked into church. You know, how, you know how to look, how to talk, how to walk, how to breathe, how to smell, how to look. But we're not giving folks the opportunity now to ask the why questions, you know? And here's David in psalms ten, asking a lot of why questions. And why. Why is it that. It's because it's raw and it's honest. And I think that's where the. The drawback to church is, because there are places that are coming up that you can bring the hard questions, you can ask the why questions. It's not a sin to ask why. I mean, he's a good father. You know, my kids, they ask enough why questions, you know, but they want to know the answer to that. And I think we've just not given them a safe space to ask those white questions because we're so worried about the image of what that would look like. If you're doubting God, if you have questions about God, if you. If you. If you're going there, you must not have strong faith. And, you know, I think we just got to give a platform to give people the opportunity to. To struggle through that. I mean, there's a lot of people that are in psalms one, but they need to get to psalms. Psalms chapter ten, verse one. They got to get to psalms chapter ten, verse 18, you know, and that's where he comes back to realize God is kind. It is his goodness, his kindness that is chasing after me. It's not just my questions that I'm like, oh, I'm out here and I'm. I'm just never going to be able to have a good relationship with him because I have questions. You know, I think that really boils down to real honest transparency and honesty that, hey, I don't understand why some of this stuff happens, but here's what I'm coming back to. David started there, but he also ended up with the goodness and the kindness of God. [01:06:57] Speaker D: Right? Yeah. Yeah. And we just. Last week our church was rocked with. We had a tragic, the tragic death of a guy in our church that I grew up with him and guy was very well known in town and he was just cutting down a tree and it fell on him and took his life. 44 years old, great guy. We had over 1500 people come through to his visitation last Friday and 600 plus in the service on Saturday. And that was one of the things I dealt with was I said, we all have the same questions. We started with what. I mean, can't even believe it. Just the shock, how it's morbid, but you want to know how in the world this happened? But ultimately, why. Why did God let this happen? You know, I dealt with that in his funeral and it was a hard thing to deal with. And the truth is we don't know why to some of that stuff when. When somebody. You know, I've seen a lot of people lose their life prematurely, but most of the time you can look at it and go, oh, hey, they shouldn't. You know, it was drunk driving or drug overdose or, you know, I'm saying, like, I've seen a lot of tragedies, but then I've had other ones where you just, you don't know why, but we shouldn't be afraid to ask that. And ultimately, the answer is exactly what you said. Even though we can't understand the hand of God, we can trust the heart of God and we can lean into that. And so asking hard questions does not mean we always have a logical answer, but we do always have a God who is kind and gracious. But to create an environment where people are afraid to ask those things is totally unhealthy. And of course, again, going back to my experience, you couldn't even ask questions as to like, well, why are we King James? Only again, why? You know what I'm saying? Like, and so when you get into those more doctrinal teachings that you should be able to dig deeper and ask why you would always reach this point where, well, you're just questioning the authority. You're just questioning like, no, I just don't understand it. But, yeah, I think transparency is so, so big and just asking honest questions and us being big enough to sometimes say, you know what? I don't know. I don't know, but, but I'll dig into it with you. Let's study it out. [01:09:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. The disciples of Jesus became marked by love for one another because of Jesus. They picked it up from their leader. They learned it. And I think the problem in a lot of our churches that are struggling with not being marked by love for one another is they're not seeing that in their leaders. And, guys, we're pastors. We need to own this. This starts with us. If our people don't know how to love one another, the good chances they're not seeing it modeled by us. And it's hard. It's hard to love people through their junk, through their blemishes. But, man, that's how Jesus loved us, right? [01:10:02] Speaker A: Mark, I'm interested as a president of a university, you know, one of the things that we see, especially with all the protests and things that are going on on college campuses, a lot of people are like, well, they're going to these public schools. They're being brainwashed. They're, they're being taught this liberal agenda you're getting. I know as a college pastor for a few years, when young people graduate from high school, a lot of them, they would graduate from their faith. It was mom and dad's faith, it was youth pastor faith. And normally when they would get to a christian or a non christian university, a public school, that philosophy teacher would start poking holes in their faith and they turn into swiss cheese. Because they have nothing to stand on. How are you seeing the young people that are coming in? Because some of these folks, like it or not, they're. They're coming, and it's like, oh, a check mark. It's just a christian school, so that's just the step in the right direction. But how are you getting them to a place where they're owning their faith to where it's not just, I'm at a christian university. It's mom and dad. It's my youth pastor. I'm just doing this to check a box off. [01:11:00] Speaker C: It's very true. I mean, exactly what you're saying, that so many of our students, we give every incoming student a Bible knowledge test, and for decades, that number has gone down. And these are students coming from good churches and good families. But even there, basic knowledge is at a low level. And so we have really redesigned what we do. We have redesigned our curriculum, redesigned even our introductory classes to give them in their world, in their ability to understand what the Bible has to say. You start there. You start helping them to believe the Bible, and you establish an absolute, firm belief there. Then you can build on anything from there, but you've got to build it there and get their confidence back and strong into this is God's word. And so we've done what we can to redesign everything to start with that absolute, firm foundation, and then you can build from there. And if you explain, if you show them, if you talk, they get it. They get it. And so many students, you're right. They come from either a christian family or they come because a friend or a camp or whatever. They really don't have an intent on. I'm gonna. I'm so on fire for Jesus. That's why I'm here. No, they just. They're, you know, they're coming there for whatever reason. So we work hard, and we all. This should go for a church, too. Know where they're at, know where you want to take them, and then have a plan to get them there. And they don't even know, like, discipleship. They may not even realize that I'm in a class, but they don't realize they're being spiritually formed and being taught how to think biblically with. With the christian worldview. They're being taught all those things. They're just taking it to past class. But what they're being taught, hopefully, will stick and stay and lead them. [01:13:01] Speaker A: It's discipleship on a whole nother level. [01:13:03] Speaker C: It's. It's. It's exactly what it is, I think. [01:13:05] Speaker A: Back to my years in college, and it was formative years. Formative years. But it was also years that I look back on, and it's where my faith really started taking root. It was more like it was what I had learned through a one out through a youth group. [01:13:19] Speaker C: And now yours becomes yours. [01:13:21] Speaker A: Exactly. [01:13:22] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good question. [01:13:26] Speaker B: And I think it's also important to add, before we wrap this up, that we're not saying that nothing else matters. There's a lot of liberal churches out there that are just saying, oh, it's. It's about love. That's all it's about. We've got open hearts, open minds, open doors, anybody. We're not saying that. Don't. Don't take what we're saying. That's not what Jesus is saying. He's saying the defining mark where people will recognize followers of Jesus, is our love for one another. But Jesus was a man that was full of grace and truth and truth. He did not abandon doctrine. We're not saying abandon doctrine. We're not saying leave the fundamentals of the faith behind the essentials of the faith. They matter. Those things are important. The church is the pillar, and the ground of the truth doctrine matters. But I think in the movement that we grew up in, we weren't sacrificing the fundamental doctrines. We're the fundamentalist. We. We held to those things. Yeah, but it's sad that we weren't holding to love, which was one of the most important things anybody can check off a list. But Jesus said, true disciples, my disciples, you'll be known by your love for one another. [01:14:46] Speaker C: So, yeah, the world recognized that in them. [01:14:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:14:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:14:54] Speaker A: There's a bunch of fruit inspectors out there. [01:14:57] Speaker D: Yep. I've always been drawn to the text in mark 1237 where it concludes saying. And the common people heard him gladly. Here Jesus was effectively butting heads with the religious elites and the Pharisees and, you know, but he just kept. He just kept preaching and teaching the truth and kindness. And it's amazing that those. That those common people could. They experienced something different in his presence. And we talk about, of course, separation, and separation was something in my history, and I know in yours as well. That was. That was all exterior is all about the way you looked and the standards that you held, as far as that goes. But I think what really, I believe biblically, what really separates us is the love that we have for one another, because, again, we're all familiar with the two greek words in the New Testament, fileto and agape. And fileto is your bilateral love. I love you because you love me and you somehow benefit my life. Agape love being the. The love of God, that is unilateral and it's poured out freely. And I think when people experience. I think people should experience something different in our presence, that they should experience a freedom to be themselves again. That's not to say to agree with you. That's not to say that we throw out biblical truth or convictions or anything else. But, man, I can love people that don't vote like I vote. I can love people that don't live like I live. And if I'm ever going to make a difference in their lives, it's. It's not going to be because I want an argument with them or I yelled louder than they yell. It's going to be because there's something in my spirit, right, that is different and there's a kindness and a genuineness, even though they disagree. Listen, those common people weren't living in a way that Jesus would approve of. You know, acceptance is not approval, but Jesus loved them where they were. And I just think that's such a beautiful text, such a beautiful, amazing truth that the common people heard him gladly while all the religious crowd was still bickering and fighting. Well, he violated the Sabbath. And can you believe he said that? And they're all freaking out and losing their freak, losing their minds over it. And here you have these broken down people who just need something. They just need hope and need help. And that's the difference between Christ and religion. [01:17:38] Speaker B: Amen. [01:17:39] Speaker A: Amen. [01:17:40] Speaker D: Amen. [01:17:42] Speaker A: Well, brothers, it has been awesome to have you two back on the podcast. We need to make this a Maloney. Dudley. Milioni. Dudley. I don't know. I'm done. [01:17:56] Speaker C: Maybe me and Matt will do our own, right? [01:17:59] Speaker D: There you go. The Missouri. We'll come up with something. [01:18:02] Speaker A: Missouri version of RFP. [01:18:04] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:18:05] Speaker C: Hey, I know this will age me, but I have to say, JC, do you ever watch WKRP in Cincinnati? [01:18:12] Speaker A: The turkey drop? Yeah. [01:18:14] Speaker C: Well, you got the whole Venus flytrap thing going on there with the purple room and the lighted candles and the. Watch it and see what I'm talking about. [01:18:23] Speaker A: I will. [01:18:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:18:27] Speaker D: And you did age yourself there. [01:18:29] Speaker A: I did that. The turkey drop where they were throwing turkey. That's the only thing I know about that. Mark Milioni. Where can students go if they're listening to this? If parents listening to this, they want to get them connected to mission. You. Yeah, plug there. [01:18:47] Speaker C: I'm excited to tell you we worked hard, and we got the. The website, mission.edu. it's simple, it's great, it's easy to find. Mission.edu will give you all the information you need to get a hold of anybody, but also me. If I can ever help or answer any questions or come preach for you or whatever I can do to be a blessing to you guys. I love you. Thank you guys so much. [01:19:10] Speaker A: That's awesome. Go to mission, you students. I know if you are getting ready to graduate and you're looking for education mission, you would be a great place up there in springfield, missouri. And while you're there, you could take a hour and a half, two hour drive. How far are you, Dudley? [01:19:26] Speaker D: Two and a half, probably two and. [01:19:28] Speaker A: A half hour drive over to somewhere in missouri and sullivan, missouri. [01:19:34] Speaker D: And we have a pastoral. We have a pastoral apprenticeship program here. Now. You can send your, you know, your pastoral students over and I can teach them all the wrong ways to do. To do ministry. [01:19:47] Speaker C: That's your. Our favorite church. We watch you guys all the time. [01:19:50] Speaker D: That's awesome. [01:19:51] Speaker B: Oh, man, I saw the Sin network shirt you had on. [01:19:55] Speaker D: Yeah, that was from my time. [01:19:56] Speaker B: Was it north american mission board? [01:19:59] Speaker D: Yep. Yep. I'm still waiting on some. Some commission from representing those guys. [01:20:06] Speaker B: Jason will hook you up. [01:20:08] Speaker A: And let me say this. If you are in Sullivan and you go to the. The church there, he's got a banjo player. That might be the best banjo player I've ever listened to. [01:20:18] Speaker D: Oh, man, Tater, we love it. [01:20:20] Speaker A: A guy's awesome. He's good. [01:20:22] Speaker D: Mister Ban Jovi. You can follow him on, on tick tock. Man. He plays. [01:20:25] Speaker A: Dude does more tick tock lives than anybody I've ever seen. Yeah, I scroll. It's. Oh, there's Tate doing another live. [01:20:32] Speaker D: Yep. [01:20:32] Speaker A: I'll always throw in some good old southern gospel. He's like, nope, not doing that one. Yeah, I love it. [01:20:38] Speaker D: I'll do anything you want, but don't do that. [01:20:42] Speaker A: Well, folks, thanks for being here with us. Episode number 177 of the recovering fundamentalist podcast. A little throwback may, with two of our favorite former guests on the recovering fundamentalist podcast. And y'all have been on enough. Now you're just host. You're. You're. You're not special guest. You're just guest host with us. And so, thanks for being here with us. We'll see you in the month of June. This. The year is half over. Can you believe that? Already flying by. The month of June. We'll see you. Y'all have a great week. [01:21:13] Speaker D: Appreciate you guys. [01:21:14] Speaker C: Be sweet. [01:21:15] Speaker D: Sweet. Oh, by the way, what the heck, dude? How am I going to. Come on. How am I coming on the RFP? And Brian Edwards Papa Paw Paw himself is not on here. I'm I'm. I'm so, so many different. Where's Brazilians of offended? Yeah, I just. [01:21:35] Speaker A: I can't believe 177 episodes and count how many times we've said, where's Brian? [01:21:40] Speaker D: Yes. [01:21:41] Speaker A: I love it. [01:21:42] Speaker D: Well, tell the old man I said hi. [01:21:44] Speaker A: I'll do it. [01:21:45] Speaker B: We'll let him know. [01:21:46] Speaker D: Love you guys. [01:21:47] Speaker A: Bye now. [01:21:47] Speaker B: See you, dude. [01:21:48] Speaker D: Peace. Sweet peace. [01:21:51] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to the Recovering fundamentalist podcast. Be sure to stop by our social media, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Give us a follow. Also, go to our website, recovering phone, recundamentalist.org dot. That's recoveringfundamentalist.org dot. There you can find recoveringfundamentalist swag. You can get your t shirts and hats. You can join our ex fundy community, see where we're gonna be having some meetups. It's the recoveringfundamentalist.org dot. Be sure to join us next time for the Recovering fundamentalist podcast.