Episode #199 - Leaving a lasting legacy.

[00:00:10] Speaker A: No matter how much I study about Christ or preach about Christ, he is utterly and completely inexhaustible. So to argue that God is not sovereign would be to argue that there is something else in the universe more powerful than God or more sovereign than God. Redemption is not essentially for us. It is for us to be transformed into the bride of Christ so the Father can express his love lavishly to the Son by giving the Son an eternal worshipping bride. From the very beginning, I realized that I didn't want my sermons locked into a zip code or a timestamp. And I think the word of God is timeless. So I'm grateful that there's a kind of timelessness. The only way you know the difference between a new sermon of mine and one from 40 years ago is I'm talking a little faster and my voice sounds a little higher. I would never change anything. A life of exhausting. My understanding of Scripture has yielded fruit in my life and my wife's, my children and my family and my church and far beyond. I'm only as useful as I am attuned to the truth that comes from heaven. [00:01:42] Speaker B: Everybody. Welcome back to the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. I'm your host, J.C. groves. Of course, that was a tribute put out yesterday in memory of the legacy of John MacArthur. And it felt so well with today's episode, how to Leave a Lasting Legacy. This is episode number 199. Can you believe it? 199. Today's episode. Man, this one hits deep. Just one episode away from closing a chapter that has shaped my life in more ways than I can explain. When this podcast started six years ago, I'll be honest, I was angry, wounded, searching, hurting, maybe. And maybe you were, too. But through the laughs, the tears, the rants, the. The healing, the hard conversation, something absolutely incredible has happened. We found freedom. We found each other. And for me personally, I've learned so much about grace. There's been so much growth that has happened in my life over this last six years. What an incredible journey. You've heard my story, and I've had the privilege of hearing so many of your stories. As we near the end of this road, I can think of no better conversation to have than this. How to leave a lasting legacy. Not the manufactured kind, not the one that's polished for public image, not the one that depends on titles or church politics. Not platform, not praise, but the real kind of legacy. The kind built day after day through love, through honesty and through presence. The kind of legacy that shapes your kids. The kind of Legacy that impacts your friends, that strengthens your church, and echoes through your community long after you are gone. I'm not having this conversation alone. Today I'm joined by a good friend and our final guest here on the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast, Caleb Cody. Caleb is a missionary for Word of Life Youth Ministries, and for the past decade, he's poured his life into serving local churches around the Atlanta area. He's also the marketing manager with a passion for equipping youth leaders, building strategies and resources that help ministries grow and students thrive. And I'm so excited to have Caleb here. More than that, Caleb is a man who walks in grace boldly, humbly, and consistently. And we're going to dive deep today. We're going to talk about the kind of legacy that matters, the kind that outlasts our voice, the kind that outlives our name, the kind of legacy that points people to Jesus. So whether you're listening from your commute, maybe you're in the gym, maybe you're sitting on the back deck having a cigar, I hope this episode meets you right where you are. Because this isn't just another podcast episode. This is an opportunity to pause a moment, to look back at where we've come from, but to look ahead to what kind of legacy we're leaving behind. With that being said, I only get to say this two more times. Let's go. You are listening to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast, where faith and real life collide in a world full of noise division debate. We're here to cut through the clutter with honest conversations, bold truth, and a whole lot of grace. Whether you're questioning, growing, or just trying to make sense of it all, you've got a seat at the table. Let's join JC Groves for today's episode. Let's go. The Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast starts in three. [00:05:17] Speaker C: You know what makes women stupid is. [00:05:18] Speaker B: Colin Jesus was not a bartender. High back. 2. [00:05:23] Speaker C: You have lost your mind. [00:05:25] Speaker B: Long tongue. Heifers have given me a lot more trouble than heifers wearing britches, and you know that. Say amen right there. 1. Let me tell you something, bozo. They'll be selling Frosties in hell for this. Boy puts on a pair of pink underwear. Amen. I sucked my thumb till I was 14 years of age. I do want to thank you for tuning in to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. I AM your host, J.C. groves, and this is episode number 199. Honestly, I can't believe I'm even saying that. One more episode to go. We're closing a chapter on something that has shaped my life, and hopefully yours as well, in a deep and lasting way. Over the last six years, this podcast has been more than just a microphone and a message. It's been a mirror, a map, sometimes a megaphone, but always a ministry. Calling out the lies, lifting up grace, and helping us all remember that Jesus way is better than the version that we were handed today. We're not talking about something that is superficial. It's something that's been heavy on my heart for a while. That word is legacy. Not just what we're leaving after we're gone, but what are we building right now with our choices, our presence, and our stories. If you've ever sat back and asked, what's my life really going to mean when it's all said and done, then this episode is for you. I couldn't imagine having this conversation with anyone better than my friend Caleb Cody, our final guest here on the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. Like I said in the intro, he's a faithful leader, a husband, a missionary, and someone who knows what it means to walk through the fire and come out with grace. Caleb is someone who's walked his own path of deconstruction, from a form of legalism and a reformation in his life to a relationship with Jesus. He's got a heart for the local church, for authenticity, and for building something that lasts. And so, Caleb Cody, I want to welcome you to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. Congratulations, my friend. You are the final guest on the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. How's that make you feel, man? [00:07:32] Speaker C: It's an honor, jc. It is an honor. Thank you. [00:07:35] Speaker B: Finally. Gotcha excited. [00:07:37] Speaker C: Yeah. This is like a full circle moment for me, you know, because when I. [00:07:40] Speaker B: It is. [00:07:41] Speaker C: I was like, oh, JC, he's a celebrity in my unbelievable or 13 year old mind. Yeah, just. I don't want to make you feel too old, but thank you. [00:07:48] Speaker B: I do. [00:07:49] Speaker C: Circle man, I love it. [00:07:50] Speaker B: Yeah, we were talking before. I feel like I've just known Caleb for ever. Like he's just been somebody that I've always known and just watched on social media. I met Caleb all the way back in 2006. I was speaking at a youth rally, a fall retreat, if you will. And man, you remember that car that I rented that day? Do you remember what kind that was? [00:08:09] Speaker C: That time in my life, I thought you were the coolest person ever for driving that car. [00:08:14] Speaker B: What was it? [00:08:15] Speaker C: I don't even judge you for. It was a Dodge Nitro. [00:08:18] Speaker B: Oh, a Dodge Nitro. [00:08:20] Speaker C: Nitro. Like little. I compare Jeep Renegades to the. [00:08:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:25] Speaker C: Dodge Nitro of today type thing. [00:08:27] Speaker B: But it was brand new in 2006. [00:08:29] Speaker C: Hey, I thought it was pretty cool, man. [00:08:31] Speaker B: Listen, everybody that knows me knows I love renting cars because I will always. I make friends with the people at the car place and they give me the high class cars. I'll do the you pick, we pick kind of thing and they give me the great ones. I could barely fit in that nitro. [00:08:46] Speaker C: We went, we went to I think probably my youth pastor at the time time gave you a little bug in your ear like hey, maybe spend some time with this kid. My dad had just passed away. [00:08:54] Speaker B: Yeah, he did. [00:08:55] Speaker C: And you were like the cool speaker at the youth retreat, man. And I unreal. You spent a little intentional time with me I think that weekend. And I remember that my mind ever since then I really looked up to you and kind of same that's cool to you. Kind of watched you through the years. It was funny. We were looking back on some old Facebook messages. Yeah, it's, it's, it's an honor. Seriously, it's an honor to be on the podcast. Thanks. [00:09:15] Speaker B: Well, I'm glad you're here, man. You knew me back when I had hair. There's a lot of people, I can't say they did so well. Caleb, tell us a little bit about yourself. Introduce your family and what you're doing and what God's doing in your life right now. [00:09:28] Speaker C: Yeah, so my wife Stephanie and I are blessed with two little babies. We have a three year old daughter, Emma and 10 month old, well, she's not three yet, she's almost three. And then a 10 month old son, Josiah. So we serve with, like you said, Word of Life. Yes, I've been serving with Word of Life my entire adult life. So kind of crazy how God took me there. Maybe we'll get into some of that when we talk about legacy and stuff. But we, we've been serving. I've been a full time missionary with Word of life for 10 years and so we've been serving the greater Atlanta area for the majority of that time. Serving local churches, helping youth leaders really build strategic discipleship programs in churches. So preschool through high school ministries. That's what we do with Word of Life youth ministries. We come alongside churches and help them disciple the next generation. And really God, just at one time I thought I might want to be a youth pastor and I caught a vision while I was at Word of Life of working with youth pastors. And so we just thoroughly loved serving with Word of Life. But Yeah, I grew up in Tennessee, God's country. So you know, Georgia and Alabama, they're all great too. If you're anywhere in Georgia, Tennessee or Alabama, I think that's God's country in my opinion. [00:10:42] Speaker B: It is. [00:10:44] Speaker C: But yeah, Tennessee. Grew up as a pastor's kid. My dad was the associate pastor of a church up there. Met the Lord at a young age. But then when my dad passed, I was really rebellious, really angry at God, all that. Had to work through that. And then it was actually because, and this is my, pretty much my testimony in life because of other people's generosity and because of a praying mother. I contribute most of what God's done in my life to those two things. Oh, that's cool. Generosity and a loving praying mother. God took me to Word of Life and really I fell in love with the ministry that had such an impact in my life and been serving with them ever since. So that's great. That's a little bit about, about our crew and what we do. [00:11:27] Speaker B: Yeah, the RFP fam is no stranger to Word of Life. Of course, we've talked about it a lot and I've been, since the podcast started, I've been speaking up at Word of Life and you know, thank you to you for getting my foot in the door there. Caleb found a message that I sent him back in 2013 and he was just a bi student. He gave me a great spiritual answer. Man, he just read it to me. That was absolutely hilarious. But we, we had Boobar on. We've had so many people from Word of Life on. Speaking of legacy, just an incredible legacy of, of training young people to know Jesus and man. Love Word of Life, love what they're doing there. So let's, let's talk about legacy. Caleb, before we, before we get too far down the road, let me ask you this question. When you hear the word legacy, what does that actually mean to you? Not, not the churchy, cliche kind of way, but personally, what does that mean to you? [00:12:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I think legacy is a continuation of what really matters of truth in your life, what you hold to be true in your life. True legacy is continuing that. And that, that should be something because I've been thinking about this. This is, you know, we can tend to think of legacy only with well known names or people. You know, you think, oh, so and so had a great legacy or so, you know, but every single one of us are leaving a legacy of some sort. And what we're leaving is the truth that we hold so dearly. So that's going to be something you're going to leave a legacy. [00:13:09] Speaker B: Sure. [00:13:10] Speaker C: I think of legacy. Yeah, I guess I think of. Yeah, every single one of us is going to leave a legacy. And the question is, what is that legacy going to look like? Yeah, legacy to me, I. I think you could almost. It's synonymous, at least in my mind, of my truth is my leg, like, what I hold to be true is what I'm going to be leaving behind. [00:13:30] Speaker B: Sure. [00:13:30] Speaker C: Right, sure. Because it's going to be the things I'm going to focus on. I'm going to put my time into. I'm going to invest in people, all those things. [00:13:36] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. [00:13:37] Speaker C: Yeah, that's. That's a good question. [00:13:39] Speaker B: I'm fighting really hard not to play the casting crown song. I want to leave a legacy. You know, when we first started the podcast, we tried to get a casting crown song into every episode, and I. I didn't like it. But that song, just as you were talking, it just kept coming back in my head. I was like, man, that. That is so true. Because I think what we do is we tend to think it's only the people that have the big name that have the. The titles in the. You know, that honestly, let's just be. Let's just call it what it is. I messaged you back in 2013, and you just read me what I messaged you, and I said, what does somebody with no credentials and no name pastor have to do to be invited to speak at Word of Life? You want to know why? Because all I knew of Word of Life was these big name, big money, who you knew kind of guys that were coming to speaking. And when I was a boat driver on the island, I would drive the speakers over, and it was always the who's who. It was always these guys that were like this, oh, man, their legacy is going to be incredible. And I remember as a boat driver, like, I'm so insignificant to the point now, after seven years of being a camp speaker, I realize, I hope that those are guys that just. Are like me, that daily just have to depend on Jesus. And it's not about your titles, if you will. I think that's such a good word because so many times we think it's just the big people that leave a legacy. But all of us are leaving a legacy, whether we know it or not. That's a powerful word. You know, I think for me, if I were to answer my own question, I think legacy, it really isn't about accomplishment or status, like you said. It's about what remains after we're gone. I think that's a big thing, not just what people say about you at your funeral. I do hundreds. I have done hundreds of thousands of funerals. You've said at your dad's funeral, and I'm sure many people said some great things about him. I think it's what we leave behind in the hearts. I'm sure your dad has left a legacy in your life, not just what was said at a funeral service. Would you, would you speak into that? [00:15:33] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And I was blessed with. I have nothing but positive memories of my dad. So, yeah, that's. I mean, really. I genuinely mean that. And he's good. You know, he went to heaven when I was 12, a week before my 13th birthday. So I. I have limited memories, but all my memories of my dad are positive, live. [00:15:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:51] Speaker C: Seriously. Blessed. Blessed. Blessed for that. But, yeah, the legacy, again, that's the things that I. Even as I get older and as I became a father myself and things I look back and if I stop and think of why I hold again those truths in my life. [00:16:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:11] Speaker C: It's largely because of the impact my father had on me even at an early age. So his legacy definitely lives on. It probably doesn't look exactly how he would do it or. Sure, you know, exactly. Right. We are all individuals and we all have our own choices and things that we value, but that legacy is definitely ongoing. That's good, man. That's. I think it's important to say you brought up that message that you, you know, hey, what's a no name preacher? I mean, yeah, my Spiritual Bible Institute response right at 20 years, probably at the time was, was, I hit you back. I guess our professor had just told us, I mean, I've got to read it or I butcher it. He literally said just a couple weeks before that, he said, there are men all over the nation who pray like Paul, study like Spurgeon, and preach like Whitfield, who are preaching faithfully in their town. And just the idea of, you don't need a big title at an organization that's in, you know, Word of life's in 90 countries around the world. You don't need to be part of a big org like that. There are people listening to this podcast right now that are leaving such an impactful legacy. [00:17:15] Speaker B: Amen. [00:17:15] Speaker C: In someone's lives, many people's lives. [00:17:17] Speaker B: And yeah, I agree with that. I agree with you 100. It's about who you impact. It's. It's how you love. It's the values that you pass down. It's about consistency over time, not just the big moments. And you know, Caleb, I think a lot of people for. For a lot of us coming out of the fundamentalist world, the idea of legacy was kind of distorted in a way. I just shared that with what I saw. The speakers at Word of Life, we were taught to build reputation, not a legacy. You had to protect the family name, protect the ministry name, never be seen as weak, never mess up. That's what was called legacy. But really, let's just call it what it was. That was pressure. You know, the kind of legacy is performance based. That is absolutely exhausting. It's about what people see, not what is real, but true. Legacy, in my opinion, is slow. It's faithful. It's about how you show up day after day, especially when no one's clapping for you, when you're not on the big stage, when the lights aren't on and the camera's not on and the podcast isn't rolling. Legacy isn't built on performance. I believe it's around the dinner table, the car rides, the forgiveness, the presence. And honestly, the older I get, the less I care about being impressive and the more I care about being intentional. That's been a big shift in my life, especially over this last six years, doing this podcast. I mean, I'll be honest, when we first started, the fame, a little bit, if you will, was getting to me. I was like, man, millions of people are listening to this. Couldn't walk through the airport without people. It's still to this day, like, don't you have a podcast? I'm like, yeah, we do. Thanks. But the older I get, the more I care less about being impressive. And I just want to be intentional. And I believe that legacy is showing up for your kids. It's loving your spouse. Well, it's finishing the race without burning up, without blowing up, without throwing in the towel and quitting. How many people in ministry, bro, mess up before the end? You know, they've done so well for so long. And we've said this a thousand times on here. We're all one decision away from stupid. And we make that small, momentary oops, if you will. We fall into sin. It's revealed finally because of a life that's probably lived in private, that is now public. And I just believe it's about passing something better on to the next generation. I heard a video Yesterday of John MacArthur, you know, shout out again, singing a few years ago, find us faithful When I stood at word of Life. Back in 1996, they did a thing called Teens Involved. And I sang the song Find us faithful May all who come behind us Find us faithful May the fire of our devotion light their way May the footsteps that we leave lead them to believe and inspire them to. I'm making up words now, but, you know, find us faithful. And if you're listening to this thinking, man, I've messed up. Can I just say to you right now, it is not too late. Legacy isn't some polished highlight reel of your life. Legacy is the long game. Start now, start small. Start by loving the people really well in front of you right now. Caleb, besides your dad, who's someone or someone's. Is that the right way to say it? Who's some people? There we go. In your life that's left a lasting legacy and what made their impact stick with you? [00:20:37] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, so my mom, I told you I had a praying moment. So she always prayed after my dad passed that God would put people in my life and my sister's life. That would fulfill God's promise to be a father to the fatherless. You know, ultimately God is that perfect father, but earthly, earthly examples. And I undoubtedly, at word of life, God fulfilled that tenfold to me. I had people in my life that I viewed as kind of like, okay, I've got my listening type father figure. You know, I've got my face a little bit, because you need to be told it, you know, black and white type father figure. So he's, he's kept that promise, I would say. I've had so many godly men and examples who have left again, those little bits of truths, those values that they're passing on to me that I look at myself and I say, huh, why do I do that? Or why do I think that way? Oh, it's because of this person. And I would definitely say my mom for that. Like, when I'm just at a loss, sometimes I'll just start praying. I'll go walk and just pray out loud. And that's because I heard my mom at her lowest points in life, she would just start praying, you know, and, you know, actually one of my best friends in my life who happens to be my boss as well, shout out, Brent. He has spent so much intentional time in my life. And like, what you're talking about, it's the, it's the day to day, it's the intention. It's not, you know, one big title or one big moment. It's a lifetime of legacy and even small things. And how my humor, you know, or things that I'll do because I'm friends with Brent, because he has discipled me. Really. So that's true. Legacy. When I think of legacy of. And you think of as a parent. Okay. 101 legacy. 101. Your kids. Right. That's where you're starting. [00:22:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:28] Speaker C: And then within your local church, who are you pouring into? Who are you allowing to pour in Yourself? But, yeah, that's good. I just keep going back to that, you know, why do I think the things I do? Why do I do the things I do? It's probably because of other people's influence in my life. [00:22:44] Speaker B: Sure. [00:22:45] Speaker C: Hopefully we allow that to be good, godly people. And. Yeah, I've been blessed with many people like that. [00:22:51] Speaker B: Is that Brent Fitchum? [00:22:53] Speaker C: Yeah. Brent Finch. [00:22:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Listen, I don't think I've ever met Brent in person, like, face to face, but the last two summers, I've gotten text messages right before. Like the last year at the coast and this year at the ridge, just a text. Hey, man. Praying for you. Praying God speaks through you. This week, I'm like, that. That's. That's awesome. You know that. And there are guys. [00:23:14] Speaker C: Something he means everybody sure is the most relational person. I've been saying that for 12 years, ever since I met. I. I met Brent first on my internship when I went to Alabama and kind of shadowed him because I was training to be a missionary. How he was that. He and his wife and family have served in Alabama for about 20 years now. And now he serves as the director of our. Which he will. If he hears this, he'll hate that I even referred to him as my boss. [00:23:38] Speaker B: He doesn't listen to the rfp. You're okay. [00:23:41] Speaker C: Yeah. That's funny. [00:23:42] Speaker B: That's fun. [00:23:43] Speaker C: Kind of the person he is. He. He doesn't want to be called boss. He doesn't. But he would. I'm telling you, he would call. Every time I was with him, he was in the vehicle. He's calling somebody, checking in on him, praying for you, thinking of you. How you doing? So, yeah, that'll be. [00:23:58] Speaker B: I've got those people. I've got those people in my life that show up just consistently every Sunday morning around 7:30am Tommy Sewell, Seawall, however you say, his last name. I've known him forever and still can't say his last name. Sends me a text, hey, jc, I'm praying for you today. Preach the word. And I know that text is coming through. He didn't do it. A couple weeks ago and I said, you good bro? He was like, yeah, I'm sorry I missed that text. We've got a group chat with about four pastors and we every Sunday morning send a group text there. I think that is exactly what it is. Caleb is just the consistency just continuing to show up. But let's go a layer deeper here. A lot of folks listening like you and me, we didn't just grow up in church. We grew up in a kind of culture, if you will. That legacy was a little distorted this fundamentalist world in some regards. For most people listening, it was probably a lot worse than it was for us. But it was high control, high shame, low grace. For so many people listening, leaving that world meant stepping into a season of deconstructing. And we've talked about deconstruction on this podcast. Not deconstructing away from your faith in Jesus, but deconstructing away from this man made ideology preached as Bible doctrine. I'm interested your journey of deconstruction from your faith of legalism, if you will. And I don't really know what your, your background in that was, but stepping away from that legalism and rethinking what you believe shaped the kind of legacy that you want to leave. Now speak into that a little bit. [00:25:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I. So really I was blessed still to this day. The church I grew up in, I believe with all my heart. It's filled with wonderful God fearing, God loving people, loving, you know, Bible believing believers. The best way I would summarize it though is when I went to Word of Life as a really just troubled teenager. Like I, I was just rebellious and got a couple. I went to, you remember Seventh Day Slumber? [00:26:10] Speaker B: Do I remember Seventh Day Slumber? Come on. Yes, I do. [00:26:13] Speaker C: Rocking out to some seventh. [00:26:15] Speaker B: Come on. I had the red goatee and everything. [00:26:18] Speaker C: Yeah, all that. So I was at a Seventh Day concert and that's when the Holy Spirit just convicted me so much of how I was living because I was just doing my own thing, living a two faced life, going to church, going to school. I was two totally different people. Right. Because I was still. I had the reputation. I don't know how many times I heard walking out the door, you know, when you go out that door, you represent the Cody family, you know, the 100%. [00:26:42] Speaker B: Yep. [00:26:43] Speaker C: And, and you know, or how many times I was quoted, you know, a great name is rather to be chosen, chosen. It was all about the name. The look always like. And there's so much of that. Again, the older I get, I'LL tell you, this is just like a little freebie here, a thought that I've really wrestled with. I'm sure you've had similar thoughts, but the older I get and the more I've kind of been exposed to the rest of the world, I guess you could say, the more I see, man, the independent fundamentalists get so much. Right. They just take it way too far. You know, you're right. It's kind of like my. [00:27:17] Speaker B: You're hitting the nail on the head. [00:27:18] Speaker C: Really, where I can. It's like, okay, we got this. Right. But then we took it and you said it a minute ago, we start creating these man made ideologies. Yep. So we take what's right and then keep running with it. And that's when ultimately it becomes wrong. Right. But anyway. [00:27:30] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:27:31] Speaker C: I. I went to that concert and I was just so convicted. And that's when I was 17, I think, and it was going into my senior year in high school, and that's when I was open to, hey, okay, God, I'll sure, I'll go check out this Bible college, you know. But I had no real. My plan was, maybe this will be good for me. Well, I go up there and the people were just different. I. It was, it was. And there's probably people listening to this podcast that when you think of Word of Life, you even. Because I know I have friends. We have people on our staff, believe it or not, that went to Tennessee Temple back in the day and they could understand Word of Life people because they were like, I know them. They thought that. Yeah, exactly. Me too. Right. Shout out. [00:28:15] Speaker B: Beep. No, I was just kidding. Yeah. See you. Paula Bradovic. [00:28:22] Speaker C: Hey. [00:28:22] Speaker B: I'll say his name. [00:28:23] Speaker C: He'll tell you his whole. [00:28:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. [00:28:25] Speaker C: His whole story. And what's ironic about that is he literally is editor for all of our youth. [00:28:30] Speaker B: I know he's speaking at the Ridge this week or last week. He did. Yeah. Paul's great. [00:28:35] Speaker C: Anyway, I go up there. I'll never forget. I came back and I told. I think I told my mom. I definitely thought it. And I've said this for years and years, but I went up there and I just thought, man, those people are weird. They are so weird. But there was something deep in my soul that I was like. I feel like they. Yeah, there's just something that they have that I don't. I don't. I've not. I've not been around it. And I'll tell you what I truly think it was. It was just truly a freedom to just live in the grace of God and, and just love God like they, they just love God. And I. It's not that I didn't have people around me that didn't love God, but it's so, I mean, it can happen in my life today. Jc Right. Like, we're so prone. We have this bent going down the road. Actually, ironically, a few weeks ago, I think I told you earlier, a few weeks ago, I went to my home church and the pastor there, I love him, he's one of my best friends. Love him so much. He's a great pastor. And his message was literally. I forget the title, but it was all about legalism. And he literally said from the pulpit, he said, I'm a recovering legalist. Come on. [00:29:43] Speaker B: Right? [00:29:44] Speaker C: And man, those two parallel perfectly. Right? Like, sure, they do. Covering legalist. I'm a recovering. [00:29:51] Speaker B: And so they are the same thing. [00:29:53] Speaker C: Yeah, right. So it. Well, that for me was the changing point because I was like, man, I think so. I can really love God without. And you said it earlier, the pressure. Yeah, like what? Where does all this pressure come from? And just really kind of working through that. And so that was part of. When I started back to your question about really thinking through. It was so much more than about the just legalistic mindset that I had to fight, but it was also thinking through why. Why do I believe what I say? I believe why. It was really the first time in my life that I was seeking truth and seeking answers on my own, not just taking it because it was traditionally the thing to do. And if you didn't do that thing, then you were definitely going to be looked at a certain way or, you know, judged or something like that. Especially for me, again, as a preacher's kid, you know, there was this pressure. Whether I put it on myself or other people. I mean, definitely, I think it was a little bit of both. And it's just to be a certain way and man, aren't we aren't. I'm just so glad that that's not how God views me because whatever certain way I think I need to be is never enough. And so that's an exhausting life to live. To live my life thinking, I need to do this, I have to do this. If I don't do this, then that is not the relationship God wants with his children. It's really one of total submission and surrender that I can't do anything. And so I just need you. But what a freeing realization. And I think that's really when it first happened for Me is when I went to Word of Life and I started studying the Bible for myself. And yeah, that I think the rest is kind of history. And, and I remember conversation, we were talking about this. It's, you know, this might trigger some people buckle up, but it's been an evolution of some sort. Yeah, it has, really. And, and we were talking about that even with your podcast, right. Of how it started and now where it's at now. And. But it's been an evolution of just. The more I learn about God's grace, the more I see how ridiculous our man made ideology of how we interact with. [00:31:59] Speaker B: You know, I think for me also that summer of 2000 that I spent up there, I had, I can remember three conversations. Mike Eaton, Jacob Kessling, and another guy that I honestly can't remember his name. But we started talking and for me, deconstruction wasn't about walking away from Jesus. It was about stripping away everything that wasn't him and changing everything that I thought about the life that I want to live and the legacy, ultimately that I want to live. You know, legacy. It used to be about being an example, you know, being the guy who never messed up, never questioned anything, always looked the part, but now it's about being real. It's about leaving something behind that's actually helpful and healing, not just impressive. I remember years ago when I started questioning things, not just theology, but systems and control and manipulation. I honestly felt like I was destroying everything. But what I learned is that deconstruction wasn't demolishing things, it was actually renovating things in my life. I was clearing out the junk so something stronger, more honest, more lasting could be built in my life. And coming out of fundamentalism, everything was public. It was all external. And so when I see people, when I think about that, the question now is not just, you know, what do they think about me? Or it's what do they know about me? Like, what does my family know is true about me? What do my kids feel when they're around me? Are they safe? Am I steady? Am I humble enough to apologize when I get it wrong? Listen, doing this podcast, people are going to have preconceived notions about you. I learn about myself all the time. Get on Twitter. People tell you all kinds of things about yourself. I got fruit inspectors in North Carolina that love to, you know, know who I am. And that's just the thing when you put yourself out there. But the people that are closest to me, the. The folks that God has blessed me, the most incredible Blessing of shepherding my church here. Like, what do they know about me? And you know, maybe if you're listening to this right now and you're still in a hard place, maybe you're still asking questions and still kind of sifting through what real is versus religious performance. I want you to hear this. Your story isn't over. Your deconstruction of man made ideology of performance based faith, that doesn't disqualify you. It may just be the beginning of the legacy that God actually wants to build through you. You know, Cody, you just, you talked a lot there about legacy and life. Was there ever a moment where you felt like tearing down things meant you had nothing left to build? And how'd you push through that? [00:34:35] Speaker C: I mean, that's a. I think anyone who can relate with what we're talking about. You pretty much just asked me, did you ever realize you needed to start from ground? Like, I don't, I don't even know how to. Like, what you just said was pretty much like, did you ever realize that maybe you've got to tear everything down to get a cli. And even to this day. Yeah, I, I'm. I mean, it's a constant. Again, it. And I know we're going to talk about this maybe in a minute, but like, we, we don't. There's no productivity that comes from me just being mad about the past. Yeah, there's nothing good that like. But that is my fleshly like, tendency. Like as soon as you ask that question, it's like, well, yeah. Are you asking me, was there ever a moment in my life when I realized, man, how much unnecessary pressure and how much hurt and how much, you know, just start, you see how quickly it start becoming so negative and then Satan wants nothing more than to jump in and, and do all that. So. But yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, again, I think it was my time at Word of life. It was. You know, me and my mom have talked about this. It's kind of funny. It's ironic. So we, we went from high school years, most of my high school years. My mom, I mean, I put her through hell on earth and worrying and, you know, like sneaking out, hanging with the wrong crowd, just getting into trouble. And to be frank, I don't remember a ton of it because sure, those years are honestly kind of a. A blur to me. Just the trauma response, I guess, from losing. [00:36:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:15] Speaker C: And stuff. But I do know I put my mom through hell on earth. And what's ironic is at one point in her life, there's probably nothing more. She would have like, if you said, hey, would you love to see your son go to Bible college? You'd be like, yeah, absolutely. But then the irony is I go to Bible college, fall in love with Jesus and his Word, and then I'll never forget. I called her and said, mom, I think I need to stay another year. And it's almost like in that moment, I know my mom had to wrestle with God like you're, you're answering my prayer, but now this isn't looking how I was planning on it, you know? Sure. And I know it was hard for my mom. I stayed another year and then I called her back and said, hey, mom, I think God is calling me to full time ministry. I think I need to stay for a two year internship and be a missionary and raise my funds and never make a lot of money. And do you know? [00:36:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:00] Speaker C: She's like, you know, at that point it's like, wait, did I pray for this? You know, but it was during. I bring that up because it's ironic to the question that, you know, who knows if, if my mom would have known, hey, would my son maybe step away from those, some of those traditions? You know, and my mom is very reasonable person, but that's all, you know, it's just natural to us. It's like, this is different, you know, this is different. Yeah, but that's definitely the time. My time and I could label as my time, quote unquote at word of life. That's not a fair representation. It's my time truly personally studying God's. [00:37:37] Speaker B: Word because I think that's the important part. Yeah. [00:37:40] Speaker C: And that is so you don't have to go to a place or a camp or a thing, but being with God himself, falling in love with him and his word. Not just, you know, we're called to love God and love, you know, people, but a lot of us because our flesh, we want that affirmation. We, we tend to look for people's affirmation more than God's. But that's what will flip the script. Right. And that the whole you're, what you're calling the deconstruction is when, when do I say, okay, I do acknowledge and realize I've built my life maybe on some man made blocks and a man made foundation even for some of us. When do I get the jackhammer out, crush it up and say, God, let's just go to the drawing board. I want you to be the one who builds this thing so good. [00:38:29] Speaker B: And so I think You've set the stage up perfectly to talk about this. This last segment here is some practical ways to leave a legacy, like the tools. I mean, you just said it. When you fall in love with Jesus, when you get into the Word, that's when the superficial things start falling away. Caleb, for someone listening right now, maybe in their 20s, maybe just starting out, maybe they're in their 50s or 60s and feel like they've wasted some years, what would you give them as some tangible ways that they can begin building a legacy that actually matters? [00:39:04] Speaker C: Man. Yeah, that's a hard question because, you know, I'm not. I'm not coming at it from someone who's got it figured out. You know, I'm still figuring this out. [00:39:12] Speaker B: That's the perfect person to answer this, right? [00:39:15] Speaker C: So if I'm being honest, though, I think the answer is what I would tell myself, which is, you know, there's no good in just being mad and bitter about it. [00:39:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:26] Speaker C: Look for the good, look for the blessing, look for God in the midst of the story that is so uniquely yours. [00:39:33] Speaker B: It's good. [00:39:33] Speaker C: Look for how God used the hardship, the hurt, the circumstances all. It may very well be terrible things that have God allowed to happen in your life, but there is nothing useful out of just sulking in anger and bitterness. I'm not saying, please hear me. I'm not saying get over it with no empathy. Right. I'm just simply saying if. Very much like your podcast, if the heart behind, because I know it's been a drastic change and shift for you. [00:40:05] Speaker B: Sure. [00:40:05] Speaker C: The heart and the conversations happening six years ago and now six years later are the exact same. I have a hard time seeing how God is working in that and being. [00:40:16] Speaker B: I agree. [00:40:16] Speaker C: So in the same way with our personal life. Right. If I'm sitting and we all know those people, probably, and maybe we can be real with ourselves. Maybe we are that person we tend to for six years maybe and. Or 10 years. How much of your life? You're just saying the same kind of bitter things, having the same angry, bitter heart towards what's happened in the past. When God wants us to learn from the past and embrace him instead of keeping embracing the past. It's kind of like I have this visual in my head of I can only really hug and hold on to one thing. Right. So you can either hug and hold on to the past and you're hurt, or you can, you know, cling to Christ. And yeah, it really was convicting for me. I was having lunch with a pastor a few weeks ago, and they've been interviewing for a youth pastor. And he said, we've interviewed, you know, seven or eight guys, and just, you know, I could tell he's real discouraged. And I asked him why. And, you know, a lot of those guys he's interviewing are probably my age, probably in their 30s or so and, or even younger. But he just said, And I had never heard it put this way, but he just said, you know, every guy we interviewed the entire. So maybe this is some free advice for some of you guys trying to get hired as a youth pastor out there. [00:41:28] Speaker B: Listen up. [00:41:29] Speaker C: He said, every time we interview, the whole interview is a trauma counseling session. And he, he was just struggling. He said, he said, you know, we met you and we were. We were talking about some other things. They weren't interviewing me for that, but, you know, I, I shared. He said, you know, you shared about your dad passed, and that was hard. And then you immediately jump to how God has used that in your life. He said, literally, we'll sit and it'll just be an hour of so and so hurt me. This is, you know, the church hurt. I, I've really, you know, and that's all really real stuff. Like, that's real stuff. But if our mindset is looking back and not forward, then that's. I don't, I don't think God is glorified in that. I really have agree with that. So I think that would be my message to myself and to anyone listening is let's, let's look for how God can use something that was man made, you know, not not of God, and how he can use that to point us to himself and really embrace the moving forward rather than focusing so much on looking on the past. [00:42:38] Speaker B: And, you know, that that's one of the big things. When we started the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast six years ago, we just sat around, you know, and we're gonna hit this next week on our 200th episode, the final episode. But a look back and honestly, in the earlier days, I mean, it was kind of like ripping the band aid off and letting it bleed. Like we just wanted to expose hardcore. But over the six years, you know, I've realized, especially in this last two years, like, bro, if we never have another King James version debate, I'm good with it. If I get away from legalism and talking about rules and things, those things are always going to be there. I think what happens is you can only recover for so long before you're recovered. The problem is people like to get into a tendency where they hold on to the thing that is their crutch and then it becomes their. Their life and they never find freedom from that. And you got to grow. You know, I mean, the analogy that I've heard somebody use, we've got people that have been following Jesus for 20 years. They're still drinking meat when they are still drink, still drinking meat. They're still drinking milk when they need to be meat eaters. You know, I mean, there's no growth in your life there. And you know, honestly, that kind of legacy that's being built there is one of just bitterness and no joy. I believe that's the opposite of what John 10:10 says, that he's come to give us that real and abundant life, that real and eternal life. That's actually the opposite of that. I think for me, you know, if there were some steps that I could think of is. Is just thinking about how to break free from this pattern of performance, like some practical steps here, I would say start small. I think we tend to think legacy is massive, dramatic thing like starting a foundation or writing a book. And some of you may do that. That's awesome. Do it. But honestly, legacy starts in the ordinary. Start by what we've talked about here today, being consistent. Show up, love people, well, be someone your kids or friends can depend on. Legacy isn't just a moment. It's a pattern that's important to understand. Like anyone, we can have a flash in the pan success. But who you are every day, when nobody's clapping, when the lights are shut off, when the podcast ends, that's where legacy is built. Invest in people, relationships. I used to hear a pastor say this all the time. Caleb. Relationships are the currency of legacy. It's not about what you do, it's about who you build into. And I'd rather be remembered for someone who poured myself into others than the things that I accomplish. Here's a big one. Own your story. Don't hide from your past. Whether it's failure, doubt, legalism, or regret, use it. Be honest about where you've been and let honesty shape the way that you guide others and point them to Jesus. I love what you just said. Actually, it's saddened that they've interviewed seven people and they're all hung up on their past and their hurt. See Jesus in that hurt? Maybe sometimes God is asking us, not why am I going through this, but what do you want me to learn through this? And let's just be honest, you don't have to have it all figured out to Start something that lasts. Just start taking those steps. Maybe. Maybe you're listening and you are in a place where you're still healing, you're still asking some questions. That doesn't disqualify you. It actually makes your legacy more authentic. I believe that faithfulness is found not just in the doing, but it's the foundation of legacy. Faithfulness. Let me say that again, because I messed it up. Faithfulness is the foundation of legacy, not perfection. Just show up over and over. Let Grace do what only it can do. Listen to me. This will free somebody. You don't need a platform. You just need presence. You don't need a platform. You need a presence. So, Caleb, we're getting to this point. We're starting to wind down. This is the part of the episode that, in all honesty, is a little hard for me to even wrap my head around. This is episode 199. Next week it's episode number 200, the final episode of the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. And you just hit on. Something that I really want to hit on is if we're still doing the same thing that we did six years ago, this would be a failure. I believe that in the course of six years we've started out, I think you can go back and listen. And I know it's true because I had somebody call me the other day, pretty ticked off with what I said on episode number 27. I'll be honest, I ain't got a clue what I said on episode number 27. But when we started this thing, we were bitter, I'll be honest. We wanted to. We wanted to put some hurting on it, and I think we did that. There are some people who, for the right reasons, their voice needed to be canceled. In a way. There's some guys out there that are spewing absolutely nothing but man made ideology, preference rate, preference based preaching like it's the Bible. And I think if we've accomplished anything, the guys like Cody Zorn, their voices have been muted. All they can do is scream into their echo chamber, that's fine. Their echo chamber is always going to be there. But their message is listened to in a different way now. And I think that's important to do. But also I have this deep desire to help people not just stay in the recovering phase, but to grow from that. And man, what a ride it's been. What started with the late night phone call to Nathan, simply an idea. It turned into something way bigger than I ever imagined. It's helped people find freedom, it's helped me find Freedom from the chains of legalism. And a lot of those times I made the legalism, if you will. And now we're closing a chapter, closing an error. But the mission is not done because the season is just shifting and you kind of softballed it up there, buddy, pretty well. We're not just going to stay in recovery. There's a new season that's coming. And in this new season, we're going to see opportunities to help people go from just being bitter to being better, from just information to transformation. Caleb, you've been a friend and a brother on this journey. You've walked your own road of healing and calling. What does it feel like to be part of this moment? What would you say about the legacy that the podcast that your life, that your background. Like, how would you put a bow on this conversation today? [00:49:10] Speaker C: Man, That's a great question. That put me on the spot. [00:49:14] Speaker B: I love it. [00:49:15] Speaker C: I really, again, I'm honored to be a part of this conversation. I think for me it's cool to even what you just said about verse, you know, episode 27 versus now and seeing that and I've, I've watched that from afar. I think it's important that we don't just run away from legalism. [00:49:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:37] Speaker C: We run to, you know, Christ. We run to the truth of his word. We run to grace. You know, you don't just. It's so easy again to just get mad and run away and triggered by, you know, oh, and you just distance yourself from something that we said earlier. I, I think a lot of things we like it's important to have sound doctrine. It's important to, you know, the. These things that are good things but if they're taken too far and they're man made, then they're not. So maybe that's what I would say is. Yeah. We need to myself first and foremost like let's. And not just legalism, but let's run. Let's not just run away from our man made ideology. Oh maybe, maybe that's the best way to put it because self is at the center of all that. [00:50:25] Speaker B: There you go. [00:50:25] Speaker C: Right. Pride us as people like. So let's, let's not just run away from self into some like let's have a very clear target which is Christ. [00:50:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:36] Speaker C: And to run to him and focus on him. It's a good word. I think the world would be better for it. Right. So amen. I'm honored to be part of this. This is really exciting, man. I'm excited for what God's gonna do in your next chapter and how God uses. Uses that to reach and continue to minister to so many people. [00:50:53] Speaker B: That's good, I think. I think you could be a part of it. Shout out. We'll see. [00:50:58] Speaker C: Love, love to love. To be a part of anything I can. I love it especially, you know, just, even. I do take credit, just so you know, a little bit. For you speaking a word of life. [00:51:10] Speaker B: You take some credit, baby. Go ahead. [00:51:11] Speaker C: Yeah, I'll take some credit. [00:51:13] Speaker B: It's all good. [00:51:14] Speaker C: I had as a 20 year old. [00:51:16] Speaker B: You chat GPT, but before it was chat GPT, man, you came back with. [00:51:20] Speaker C: Some fire last night. [00:51:21] Speaker B: Night. [00:51:21] Speaker C: And I literally, I was like, dude, I've been a hype man my whole life. I'm hyping this guy up. [00:51:26] Speaker B: I love it. [00:51:27] Speaker C: Yeah, I was hyping you up. [00:51:28] Speaker B: That's your legacy. Oh, I love it. I think if there's one thing I've Learned over these 199 episodes, it's that real legacy isn't in the download numbers, the followers, or even the name of a show. To me, if I could be honest, it's in the emails, the dms, the conversations with people who say, I thought I was the only one. But I found a podcast, and because of a podcast, I found a relationship with Jesus that's important. I believe it's in the pastors who found courage to lead, lead differently. It's in the parents who started parenting with grace instead of fear, the teenagers who realize that Jesus isn't always just mad at them. That's legacy that I'm most proud of. Not that we're perfect, we're far from it, but that we told the truth. That we let people see the cracks and grace flowed from those cracks. And that's what makes real legacy. That's what gives people permission to be real. So next week, episode number 200, the final episode. It's going to be a celebration. It's going to be raw, it's going to be honest. It's not a funeral, it's a launch. Because what's coming next? Well, let's just say the mission continues. It's just continuing with a new name, a new format, and a whole new season of what it means to follow King Jesus in freedom and formation, y'. All, I am biting at the bit to tell you everything, but I'm gonna hold off because it's coming and it's gonna be absolutely incredible when you hear this news. Caleb, thanks for being part of this episode today and for reminding us that legacy isn't left behind. It's living forward, bro. Thanks for being here with us today. [00:53:13] Speaker C: Thanks for having me. [00:53:14] Speaker B: You know, folks, as I sit here wrapping up episode 199, I feel the weight of it. Not in a heavy, burdensome way, but in a sacred kind of way. The kind of weight that reminds you this wasn't just a project. This was a calling. It was obedience. It was grace showing up in a microphone week after week. This podcast has never been about having all the answers. It's been about honesty, about healing, about holding space for people to wrestle with truth and still belong. And if there's anything I've learned over the last six years, it's this. Your legacy isn't built in crowds or comments, but in consistency. It's in the way you show up when it's quiet. The way you love your people when nobody's watching. The way you tell the truth when it cost you something. So thank you. Thank you for letting me walk this road with you. Thank you for listening, for sharing the stories, for reminding me over and over again that we're not alone. Next week is episode number 200, the final one. It's not the end. It's the beginning of something new. So let's finish strong together. I'll see you next week. Love you, kids.