Episode 198 - "Narcissism in the name of the Lord - The real church scandal"

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, everybody, thanks for tuning in to the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. This is J.C. groves, your host, and this is episode number 198. Hey, right up front, I want to thank some of our sponsors, Mission University. Check them out today at Mission Edu, of course. Head on over to our website, recovering fundamentalist.org buy the book Enough from our guest on the last episode and get signed signed up for the Wild Heart Adventure in Montana. That drawing is going to happen in the month of August. You've got a couple more weeks and I would love for you to get signed up there. It's been a crazy couple weeks as I've been traveling. I apologize for not having episodes out the last couple weeks. I had the privilege of speaking at camp in Jekyll island down in Georgia on the coast, was up in Screw Lake, New York at Word of Life. And we saw God move in some incredible ways. But I'm back and I'm excited about today's episode. We're pressing towards episode number 200 and that big giveaway and it's going to be great. Stay tuned. Today we're talking about narcissist and narcissism. It's going to be a fun episode. Let's go. [00:01:12] Speaker B: You are listening to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast, where faith and real life collide in a world full of noise, division and debate. We're here to cut through the clutter with honest conversations, bold truth and a whole lot of grace. Whether your questions, questioning, growing, or just trying to make sense of it all, you've got a seat at the table. Let's join JC Gross for today's episode. Let's go. The Recovering Fundamentalist podcast starts in three. You know what makes women stupid is. [00:01:54] Speaker C: Calling Jesus was not a bartender. [00:01:57] Speaker A: High back. 2. [00:01:59] Speaker C: You have lost your mind. Long tongue. Heifers have given me a lot more trouble than heifers wearing britches. And you know that. Say amen right there. [00:02:08] Speaker B: 1. [00:02:08] Speaker C: Let me tell you something, bozo. They'll be selling Frosties in hell for this. Boy puts on a pair of pink underwear. [00:02:15] Speaker A: Amen. [00:02:16] Speaker B: I sucked my thumb till I was 14 years of age. [00:02:27] Speaker A: There's a kind of abuse that's hard to name, hard to prove, and even harder to heal from. This kind of abuse doesn't leave bruises. It doesn't always scream. Sometimes it hides behind a pulpit. It prays loud, quotes scripture, smiles for the crowd. But behind closed doors, it controls, manipulates, destroys. I'm talking about narcissism. It's not just the textbook kind, but the kind that Twists faith into a weapon, the kind that gaslights you in Jesus name. In today's episode, I'm going to talk about narcissism. We're going there. We're going to talk about how to recognize narcissists, especially in spiritual spaces, how to mark them, how to avoid them, how to heal from the wreckage that they leave behind. Listen, friends, if you've ever felt confused, controlled, or crushed by someone who claimed to represent God, this episode is for you. Because you're not crazy, you're not alone, and you don't have to stay in the fog forever. Thanks for joining me. For episode number 198, Narcissism in the Name of the Lord, the Real Church Scandal, you're listening to the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast, where we don't just question what we've been told. We dig deep to uncover truth, even when it's uncomfortable. I'm your host, JC Groves, and today we're tackling something that a lot of folks deal with, but few want to talk about, narcissists. Specifically, how to mark and avoid them. The phrase mark and avoid comes straight out of Romans 16:17. It's a strong warning that Paul gives about people who cause division and put up obstacles in the way of the gospel. Let's be honest, sometimes those people are narcissists who wear the mask of ministry, leadership, or even friendship. So what does a narcissist look like? I'm not just talking about someone who takes too many selfies. I'm talking about the kind of person who manipulates gaslights, demands loyalty while giving. None leaves a trail of hurt behind them, especially in the church. Today, in this episode, I want to unpack a few things. One, how to recognize narcissistic behavior, especially the kind that gets spiritualized. Why it's biblical to mark and avoid people like this, even if they're in a place of leadership. How to heal if you've been hurt by a narcissist, and why confidence sometimes gets mistaken for narcissism. Listen, friends, I've got stories, personal and pastoral. I've watched church splits, marriages crumble, and faith unravel at the hand of people who were never held accountable. So we're not sugarcoating today. Let me be clear. This episode isn't about bashing people. It's about clarity. It's about helping you see red flags for what they are. It's about giving you permission to walk away from toxic people who claim to speak for God, but clearly they don't reflect his heart. So I want to encourage you? Grab a notebook or maybe just take a deep breath because this is going to be raw, real. It might hit a few nerves, but I believe it's necessary. So let's jump in. What is narcissism? Well, we know clinical narcissism or it's a narcissistic personality disorder, also known as npd. Here's some key features for people with this There's a grandiose sense of self importance. There is a deep need for excessive admiration. There's a lack of empathy. Exploratives in relationships, hypersensitivity to criticism or perceived threats to their ego usually develops as a defense mechanism, often rooted in trauma or insecurity. That's the clinical side of that. But there's also spiritual narcissism. Not a clinical term, but a pattern of behavior where spiritual authority is used to feed ego, control others and elevate oneself. These folks will often use God's name or scripture to justify their manipulation or their superiority. They will demand loyalty under the guise of unity or honor your leader. They present themselves as the most spiritually mature in the room. They position themselves as being beyond correction or accountability. Often this is hidden under charisma gifting or religious language. So what are some key traits of narcissists in both contexts, clinical and spiritual? I believe there's a lack of empathy. They're unable or unwilling to genuinely feel or care about other people's pain. They may pretend like they do, but they really don't give a crap. Entitlement. Believing they deserve special treatment, unquestioned authority or access. A lot of times there's manipulation. They use guilt, flattery, fear or scripture to get their way. They're image obsessed. They care more about looking good than doing good. Here's a word. Gaslighting. They twist reality to make others feel like the problem. Hello. There's a lack of accountability. They blame others, never apologize sincerely and resist correction. Or when they do apologize, it's full of gaslighting. They charm to control. At first they're magnetic, persuasive, called by God. But it's all a setup for domination. So what are some signs to watch for? Because let's be honest, when you're looking for this, there's more red flags than Panama City during a hurricane. You consistently feel like you're walking on eggshells around this person. That's a red flag. You begin to question your own judgment or sanity. They're great at public ministry, but abusive or dismissive behind closed doors. This kind of person demands Loyalty, but never offers it in return. They isolate you from others who might speak truth. They make you feel wrong for questioning them. You ever heard Touch not God's Anointed? They shift blame, never take responsibility, even when clearly wrong. When you confront them, they make you the problem. So how do they show up in the church culture? Well, a lot of times it's in the pulpit, preaching the authoritative message, but lacks humility. Messages laced with guilt and fear, more than grace and truth in leadership that control every aspect. No room for feedback or collaboration. Boards are terms that function more like a fan club than accountability partners in their theology. Legalism is used to maintain power. Doctrine is weaponized to shame or to silence. How about personal relationships? Volunteer burnout is normalized. Dissent is labeled as rebellion or divisiveness. In their culture, people are celebrated when they're useful, discarded when they're not. When you can't do anything for them, they want nothing to do with you. The leader becomes the brand. And questioning the leader equals questioning God. So how are we to mark and avoid these people? Well, Romans 16:17, as you heard me say at the intro, what does it mean to mark and avoid them? Well, the verse says, and now I make one more appeal. My dear brothers and my dear sisters, watch out for people who cause division and upset people's faith by teaching things contrary to what you've been taught. Stay away from them. So let's give some context and some clarity here. Paul is wrapping up his letter to the Roman Church with a personal greeting, but he inserts a strong warning here. He isn't talking about people with questions or doubts. He's calling out divisive, manipulated, manipulative. That's the word. Self serving individuals who twist truth and cause harm within the body. The word mark means to notice, identify and call out. Avoid means to set boundaries, to step away at times, refuse fellowship when harm is being done. This isn't about being petty, folks. It's about protecting the health of the church, yourself and the heart of the people in it and around it. So how do these folks weaponize religion to avoid accountability? Well, this is a coined psychological phrase, but it's very relevant in church culture. Spiritual bypassing is when someone uses spiritual language or belief to avoid emotional responsibility. They justify harmful behavior. Behavior they shut down, criticism and correction. So what are some examples in the church? Well, don't gossip. You ever heard that means don't talk about the pastor's abuse. Forgive and forget equals. Ignore the trauma that you're carrying. Here's one. Touch not God's. Anointed. I can say or do whatever I want. How about this one? God is teaching you something through this. Which means I'm not going to own my own sin. It sounds holy, but it's often manipulation disguised as faith. Many times manipulation in the name of ministry happens because narcissistic and toxic leaders. They use manipulation in a few ways. 1. Through control, through fear, hell, shame, spiritual failures, church discipline. It all gets twisted. Threats are made. People stay. Not out of love for Jesus, but out of fear of rejection or divine punishment. How about this one? Love bombing? Yeah. Over the top. Affirmation, attention or opportunity until you say no or question them. Then the switch flips. Silence, shame, exile, false unity. You're told to keep peace, but the peace always requires your silence and their power. So when. When is it biblically appropriate to cut ties? Cutting ties with toxic people isn't bitterness. It's actually biblical discernment. Here's when the Bible gives green lights to mark and avoid. When there's persistent divisiveness. Titus 3:10 says reject. Reject a divisive person after a first and second warning if they won't stop manipulating, slandering or controlling. Time to cut ties. Here's another one. Unrepentant sin. If they refuse correction even after being confronted with it, treat them like a pagan or a tax collector is what Matthew 18:15 17 says, meaning, don't pretend that everything's fine. Destructive teachings. If they preach a gospel that distorts grace and elevates self, that ain't from God. If it's a danger to others, if they're causing emotional, spiritual or physical harm, especially to vulnerable people, it's not just okay. It is necessary to get away and to warn others. Listen to me. Walking away isn't weakness, it's wise. Jesus walked away from toxic people. Paul did as well. Sometimes loving others and honoring God means knowing when to leave. You're not failing the faith by stepping away from dysfunction. You're actually living it out. So how do you heal from narcissistic abuse and tools and steps to take? Well, you got to acknowledge what happened. Journal or naming the abuse, Writing it down, remembering it. Leave yourself a voice memo. Call it what it is. Don't minimize it. Write out what was said or done to you. Revisit the moment that made you doubt your sanity or your worth. Truth, my friend, brings clarity and clarity. The beginning of freedom. Here's a phrase to remember. That wasn't love. That was control. Here's something that maybe you need to do. You need to get safe first. Physical, emotional, spiritual separation. If you're still in contact with a narcissist, create distance. Block them. Leave the church. Walk away from the manipulated leader. Manipulative leader. That's the word. You can't heal in the same environment that broke you. Did you hear me? You can't heal in the same environment that broke you. Here's a phrase to remember. You don't owe an explanation to someone who's only interested in keeping control over you. What you need to do after you get saved is rebuild your identity. Affirmation. Truth. Narcissists destroy self worth. They gaslight you into confusion. They make you think you're the problem. So give yourself some truths, especially who Christ says you are. You are loved. Without condition. You don't have to earn worth. God is not like them. Here's something that I heard somebody do one time. They wrote a letter from God's heart to their heart. What he would say if he sat across the table from you. Educate yourself. Here's another step. Educate yourself about narcissism. Books, podcasts, education. Understand the tactics that help you detach emotionally. It shifts your focus from what's wrong with me? To oh, that was manipulation. Talk to somebody. Somebody that's safe. Don't walk this out alone. Maybe look for a licensed therapist who understands narcissistic abuse and trauma, or spiritual trauma. Listen, therapy isn't weakness. It is wisdom. Peer support groups, community groups can be incredibly validating. I love the RFP fam. For years folks have been on there and they're finding community. When they post something and others are saying, oh yeah, this is how I deal with that. Find you a few folks that understand you, that get you that you can trust and walk it out. Here's a big step. You need to learn to reconnect with a healthy view of God. Scripture reading through a trauma informed lens. You'll understand that narcissists often distort your view of God by presenting him as angry or distant or performance based. Hey, go back to the gospel. Watch Jesus. How did he treat the woman at the well? How does he talk to outcasts? How does he confront religious abusers? Jesus isn't like a narcissist. He sets people free from them. My friends, you need to learn to set boundaries. The word is no. Boundaries aren't rude, they're responsible. Practicing saying no without explaining yourself. You don't owe everybody an explanation. Healthy people respect boundaries. Narcissists violate them. You got to be patient with yourself, Grace. You're going to have setbacks, you'll second guess. That's normal. You might miss the narcissist at times. That's trauma bonding, not weakness healing. It isn't linear, but you're healing, my friend. I want to encourage you to find healthy community. Isolation is where narcissist wounds fester. Look for people in places where you feel loved and saved in mutual honesty. Church hurt is real, but not all community is toxic. Find a space where Jesus, not ego, is at the center. Life is not meant to be lived alone. It is best in the context of community. I want you to find some good community. And as you do that, you let God redeem the pain. You're not defying what was done to you. God can use your story to help others, to bring healing, to draw you deeper into his heart. That pain doesn't get the last word. God does. I want you to grow and to heal from this. Now, I want to hit on this because I think sometimes confidence gets mistaken for narcissism. Listen, at some point, if you're a leader, you've been called a narcissist. I've been called a narcissist. I got a text a few weeks ago from a gentleman that I've known for a very long time. And because of the circumstances around a situation that he wasn't being told the truth about, well, I got called a narcissist. And that's fine. I shook it off. It's funny, a couple days later when the full story was revealed, I got an apology text. And that's great. Wasn't looking for that. But here's what you have to understand. Insecure people, they often misread confidence when someone is rooted, clear about who they are, and unapologetically, that's the word walking in freedom. It can make people who are unhealed, insecure or stuck feel uncomfortable. It's a natural reaction. They label what they don't understand. So instead of asking, why does their freedom bother me? It becomes they must be arrogant. Here's a key truth. Some people aren't offended by your pride, they're offended by your peace. Can I say that again? Some people aren't offended by your pride, they're offended by your peace. So when someone walks in, healthy confidence, not cocky, just clear it challenges the norm. People often mistake this for boldness as arrogance, boundaries for selfishness, authenticity for attention seeking. But true humility isn't thinking less of yourself, it's thinking rightly about yourself. Listen, freedom looks loud to people still in chains. Did you hear me? Freedom looks loud to people still in chains. When you're not worried about pleasing everyone, when you're not driven by fear, not trying to earn approval, that looks strange, maybe even threatening to someone still trying to find their worth through performance. If you're used to toxic leadership or broken relationships, that someone who says no or walks confidently can look like they are full of themselves, but in all reality, they're just full of peace. Listen, narcissism is. Is about control. Confidence is about clarity. So let's draw a hard line here. Narcissism needs attention. Confidence doesn't need validation. Narcissism demands loyalty. Confidence welcomes authenticity. Narcissism gaslights others. Confidence speaks truth. Narcissism uses people. Confidence serves people. Narcissism has a fragile ego. Confidence has solid identity. Listen. Confidence threatens control. Narcissists aren't always the loudest in the room, but they're the ones who need the room to orbit around them. But when you stop orbiting around anyone but Jesus, when your own story, when you walk in calling, you don't need the crowd's applause. You automatically threaten the system that relied on your silence and your submission. Listen, friends, you aren't called to dim your light, to make other people comfortable. You are called to reflect the image of God. And that includes walking in confidence, clarity, boldness, and freedom. If someone mistakes that for narcissism, that's not your burden to carry, because the real you doesn't need to shrink to stay safe anymore. Friends, if you've been wounded by a narcissist, especially one who used God's name to justify it, I want you to hear me clearly. That wasn't God. That's manipulation. That's control. That's fear. That wasn't the voice of the shepherd. That was a thief in the temple. Jesus didn't come to enslave you to spiritual bullies. He came to set the captives free, to bind up the brokenhearted, to restore what people tried to steal from you. Your voice, your identity, your faith. You're not what they said about you. You're not too much. You're not too broken. You're not disqualified. You are loved, chosen and safe in the hands of a God who doesn't need to control you, but has already died to save you. So mark them, avoid them. Walk in freedom. And if no one's told you this lately, you're not crazy. You're not alone. There's hope on the other side of this. I want to thank you for joining me today on this episode. I'm JC Groves reminding you to keep walking, keep healing, keep chasing the real Jesus. We'll see you next time here on the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. Love you kids. [00:25:42] Speaker C: Sam.