Episode #188 "Redeemed from a broken identity. God’s Redemption Story"

[00:00:00] Speaker A: You are listening to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast where faith and real life collide in a world full of noise, division and debate. We're here to cut through the clutter with honest conversations, bold truth, and a whole lot of grace. Whether you're questioning, growing, or just trying to make sense of it all, you've got a seat at the table. Let's join JC Groves for today's episode. Let's go. The Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast starts in three. You know what makes women stupid is. [00:00:42] Speaker B: Call Jesus was not a bartender. You have lost your mind. [00:00:50] Speaker A: Long tongue. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Heifers have given me a lot more trouble than heifers wearing britches. [00:00:54] Speaker A: And you know that. Say amen right there. [00:00:56] Speaker B: 1. Let me tell you something, bozo. They'll be selling Frosties in hell for this. Boy puts on a pair of pink underwear. [00:01:04] Speaker A: I sucked my thumb till I was 14 years of age. [00:01:07] Speaker B: Hey everybody, thanks for tuning back in to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. I'm your host, J.C. groves. Glad to have you here with me. Today's episode is one that I have been looking forward to for a long time. We're calling it Redeemed from a Broken God's Redemption Story. Because for so many of us, recovery isn't just about what we walked away from from, it's about what we're walking towards. Healing, wholeness, freedom. It's not just living in recovery, but moving forward as someone who's been recovered. Today, I'm joined by Sam Jones, a longtime listener of the show who's now stepping behind the mic to share his story. Now, his voice will know will not come as a surprise as he is the voice of our intro and let me tell you, his story is powerful and honest and it's proof that even after the damage of legalism, there is hope on the other side. So wherever you are on your road to recovery, I hope that this episode reminds you that you're not alone and that there is life ahead. Just a reminder, the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast exists to help those who have been broken and have a negative effect. From fundamentalist legalism to finding freedom in Christ, our aim from the very beginning has always been to challenge traditionalism, man made ideology that many times overshadow authentic interpretations of scripture. And our hope is for you, the listener, to foster a journey of healing, growth and renewed faith through honest conversations, biblical truth and personal stories. I hope to point you to a more deep, deeper, grace filled, authentic faith as you follow the way of Jesus. With that being said, I'm excited about today's episode. But first let's pay the bills. We want to thank those who sponsor the recovering fundamentalist podcast Mission University. Founded in 1950, Mission University was founded with the mission of training Christ following leaders to tell the world about Jesus. The mission has remained the same throughout the years and today they continue to teach, to train and to prepare great leaders to make a difference with their life. Mission U educates, inspires and equips students to serve as effective Christian leaders. Find [email protected]. of course we want to thank Josh [email protected] Professional and Affordable logo and graphic design for churches, businesses and more. Forget we're going to be giving away a premium Bible, a new living translation from Tyndale Publishers on May 25. May 1. Just a few weeks away from opening up that giveaway. We'd love for you to check that out there. Before we jump into today's episode, I want to encourage you to do something many of you know that I love, Word of Life. I speak at Screw Lake, New York and down in Hudson, Florida most every summer. And I'm going to be back there this summer, the week of fourth of July. But they are doing something right now called the Eternity 5 Million Campaign. They're about halfway through and what they are doing is trying to get the gospel out to as many people as possible on social media. So far, 2.6 million people worldwide have heard the gospel messages and thousands of have said yes to Jesus. And I want to encourage you to keep that momentum going. Join the movement by sharing your testimony, your salvation story on social Media. Use the hashtag2 hashtags, hashtag E5M as well as RFP FAM. And let's join the movement to get the good news of the gospel out today as we join with Word of life with the eternity of 5 million gospel message. Hey, I just want to give you a heads up about halfway through this interview, in fact, here in just a moment, my microphone goes out and so it's going to sound a little bit different as Sam, with his booming bass voice shares his story. I'm going to sound like a little church mouse, which we know that's not true, but I just wanted to give you a heads up there that it's going to sound a little bit different. Moving on. All right, I'm excited about today's episode. Sam Jones is going to share his story. Let's jump right into it. Go Sam Jones. Sam, welcome to the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. I know we've already introduced you, but man, I am so excited to have you here as a guest finally after all these years. [00:05:42] Speaker A: Yeah. It's good to be here. I started listening to the podcast, I guess, right when it came out. I know you guys recorded one initial one. And yeah, I would say this before I get started, you know, the podcast came. Came out and what, like 20, 19 or 18, something like that? [00:06:03] Speaker B: Just before COVID hit we started. [00:06:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And. And it seems like that the podcast has been a catalyst through Covid and it's. It has been a. An avenue for people who once didn't have a place to identify. [00:06:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:26] Speaker A: And to be able to find a place to go. And one of the things that I've learned when you are in the middle of trying to find your way and you're struggling between what you have heard is quote, unquote. Right. And what you are experiencing through God's word is actually the truth. Yeah. You. You can begin to feel like you're the only one. [00:06:58] Speaker B: You're. Exactly. [00:06:59] Speaker A: And. And it's really good to be able to. To have a place to. To go and hear other people talk about some of the same things that, that you have been dealing with. Yeah. And then to find a place of. Of. I don't want to say it's your total identity, but it's a place to belong. It's what I'm trying to say. [00:07:16] Speaker B: You know, I love that you're saying this because when we started the podcast years ago, of course we told the story on here at nauseam, but I was driving to Texas and we love to drive at night because we can give the kids, you know, some Benadryl or Jack Daniel and knock them out and they sleep all night long and we just drive. And as I'm scrolling through podcasts, just trying to find something other than a true crime podcast to listen to, there was nothing that really helped. There was nothing that was. Was there that could identify with where I had been and where I was at in my journey, my walk with Jesus. And I'll never forget calling Nathan about 2:00 in the morning, said, dude, we got to record a podcast. And here's what I think the premise needs to be just us sharing our story. And if you remember that the power of a story has been part of this podcast. [00:08:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:04] Speaker B: From the very beginning, 180 plus episodes ago, the first three episodes, we all shared our story. And man, think about just the thousands, millions, literally millions of downloads later, how many people it's helped. We've also ticked off quite a few. You know, it's helped a Lot of people do exactly what you said. It's created a community. Life is not meant to be lived alone. It is best in the context of community. And even though we're not together in person, I have heard this once. I've heard it a thousand times. What y'all say is. Is giving voice to what I have been trying to describe in my life for so long, and I wasn't able to identify it until y'all started talking into the microphone. And so, you know, just the fact that you're sitting here today with hearing your story, and we've gone through this before, and I'm excited to hear it again, but just the fact that all these years later, you're sitting here on the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast sharing your story, there are so many people that I don't know if they. We wouldn't have started this six years ago that, you know, they would not have the journey out that they have had to a better relationship with Jesus. You know, I believe that God put strategic things along in our life. And, you know, when we came to this point of ending the podcast or continuing on, just didn't feel like it was the right time to press pause to stop, because there are still people. And, man, this is the weirdest thing. Sam. I got to just continue, confess. There are people that still listen to the podcast, and they're on episode four, and they're. They're texting or writing in. They're like, hey, thank you. I. I am. I am just beginning to find you in the podcast. And I'm like, man, I ain't got a clue what we said on episode five. I apologize. I don't listen to the podcast. So whatever we said, I'm glad it helped you. But let me go back and listen, and then I'll be able to tell you what we're talking about, bro. Episode like 9 is Nathan Ranger. I totally forgot about that guy. That was five years ago. We got the Phil Kidd and Barnabas Piper, and just looking at this journey, it's been incredible. But I think what you're going to do today is really six years ago when we started this. Five years ago, whatever. When we started this was the goal that we had in mind, to see Jesus come alive in your life. And if sitting behind a microphone and talking helped you find that journey that he wanted to do in your life, man, I'm so thankful for it. And, buddy, I'm excited to hear your story and for the RFP fam to hear your story. [00:10:36] Speaker A: Yeah. I would say when you talk About a journey. I would say for me that, you know, thinking about that idea that the journey is really not a letting go of fundamentals or core Bible doctrines. I would say that if you want to call it a journey or story or however you want to look at that, I would say it's more of the wanting and the desire of people to understand what the gospel is. That's my desire in ministry, where I'm at, to not allow the gospel to just be, you're saved by grace through faith, to get in the door in the family, and it's going to take me to heaven one day. But that the gospel is also the driving force behind why we get up and continue on with Jesus. Every day we have to remind ourselves of that. And I think that's something that is lacking within, within the context of what we're talking about. It's an idea that the gospel just gets you in. And that's, you know, from that point on, you have to do all the things in order to gain God's pleasure and his blessing. And, you know, we covered Galatians at our church last year when we first launched Redemption, life, Fellowship. And one of the things that God, just like the light went off, and I had read through this and I knew it, but I never put two and two together. But one of the things that I had always heard was like, you had to make yourself usable for the Spirit in order for God to use you, that I had to get myself in a position in order for the Spirit to be able to use me to do anything in the Christian Life. Well, Galatians 5 is totally in opposition to that. [00:12:48] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:12:49] Speaker A: And we'll talk about that in just a few moments. But you know, the idea of embracing the gospel, not just for salvation, but for life change, that it's. That it's a heart transformation and not behavioral modification. [00:13:01] Speaker B: That's it. And how many times, especially growing up, we just prayed the prayer? It was easy, believe is we didn't want to go to hell. So we prayed the prayer. And then there was no change that happened in life. Well, I remember I prayed the prayer, prayer in the, in the Bible Belt down here, especially how many people focus on not just the prayer they prayed, but baptism. That was the day I got saved. Because there was that tangible feel, you know what I mean? And I think what, what that does is it sets you on this vicious cycle of trying to earn God's favor and trying to earn acceptance and trying to be loved by God and man. The freedom that comes when you learn to live from acceptance, not for it. [00:13:38] Speaker A: Right. [00:13:38] Speaker B: Have I ever said that on here? Yeah, it's absolutely life changing. [00:13:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:42] Speaker B: Well, Sam, share your story with us, buddy. [00:13:44] Speaker A: Yeah. So I'll start, let me start off with this. You know, the idea of, of God's story and being redeemed from a broken identity. You know, a lot of times I know you're, you're, you're familiar with this. We, you know, you would, you would be at church and they'd have a testimony service and people would tell their testimony about what God had done. And for me, when I look at what God is doing in my life and the life of other people, I have to be reminded that God is writing this overall redemption story that he started way back when, and he worked it all the way through the Old Testament, all the way to the New Testament. And this week we're celebrating the death of Jesus on the cross. And then he gets up from the grave. But that's not the end of the story. That just puts fuel on the fire moving towards the ultimate end of God's restoration. He's going to fix everything that's broken. But here's the deal. Where we are right now, what God is doing, what he has done in our lives, is God writing our story in the middle of his big story. [00:14:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:59] Speaker A: And, you know, we could tend to make a big deal about what, what's going on with us in this moment. But really we, you know, God has, has us in the place where he has us going through the things we're going through. And in order for him to bring other people to him, to himself. And, and so for me to think, think about the idea that God's writing a story in my life, but not just in my life, but in the lives of the people who are around me. And so I have to, when I look back at all the things, and there, there was some times that weren't great. There were some things that I, that, you know, leaving. I don't want to say leaving fundamentalism, I guess, but leaving fundamentalist legalism. Right. There were some things that were said. There were some tough days, you know, and, and I can't. It wasn't all sunshine and roses. You had to battle through a few things and God had to teach me some things about myself. But I will say this if I realize that God is writing this story to bring glory and honor to himself and to bring other people to himself. When I look back at all that, those bad things and the tough things are things that I can thank God For. And I, you know. And I know that's not the case for everyone. I know there's a lot of hurt that people will have a struggle trying to. To overcome. There's a lot of things that really, really bad things that have happened. A lot of people. Yeah. In that world. And. And I don't want to gloss over that but I do want to say this is that God is working a work in your life no matter where you are. [00:16:49] Speaker B: That's right. [00:16:50] Speaker A: To show you more about who you are. [00:16:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:53] Speaker A: To show you a greater idea of who he is and to allow you to see where this is all going. [00:17:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:05] Speaker A: And you know we are. And I hate to keep dropping these things about what we're doing our church. But just excited we're going through the book of Hebrews. And that's one of the things that the Hebrew believers were dealing with in the moment. They were struggling with giving up because it was tough because their family members were still practicing Judaism and they were going to either have to make a decision. Am I going back and I'm going to leave Jesus or am I going to embrace the Roman culture or am I going to continue walking with Jesus? One of the things about the book of Hebrews is not. Not necessarily my endurance but me continuing with Jesus is directly connected to how clearly I see who he is and what he's done for me. [00:17:53] Speaker B: Sure. [00:17:53] Speaker A: And so that's the idea of re preaching the gospel to yourself in the middle of all that's going on. And that's probably one of the tools we'll talk about later on. But wouldn't it Tozer. [00:18:02] Speaker B: That said, what comes to mind when you think about God is the most important thing about you. [00:18:06] Speaker A: Oh yeah. Yeah. [00:18:08] Speaker B: You know that is what you view of him is how you respond to him. [00:18:11] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:12] Speaker B: And you know, if you view him as just somebody that you know is a dictator or somebody that's just there to strike you down when you do bad or if you don't check all the boxes or make sure you look the part and act apart and talk apart and smell the part however we smell like then he's not pleased with you. And if that's how you view him you're going to respond to him differently. But when you see him as an all sufficient savior where the gospel is continuing to be preached at to you in your life. Man. Your view of him plays a huge role in how you respond to him. Tozer. Tozer hit the nail on the head. [00:18:45] Speaker A: He's a God who is not afraid to be Identified with us. That's it, you know, and through his son, Jesus. So I'll run through my story here and just tell you where I started with my interaction with the Independent Baptist Church. And before I go into that, I do want to say this, is that I've had a lot of great pastors in my life. [00:19:10] Speaker B: Sure. [00:19:11] Speaker A: My childhood pastor, he just retired and he was. He's in. He's in Virginia, not too far from. From where Brian Edwards is. I grew up in Martinsville, actually Bassett, but went to church in a little town called Phil Dale. But my pastor I had growing up, he just retired after 45 years at the same church. And he's always been encouraging to me, no matter where I was. And. And I will say, and he's still that way. He's like a. He's like a spiritual father to me, you know, So I had a good pastor there. And none of the pastors I've ever had within the, you know, Fundamental Baptist movement, I guess you could call it, to my knowledge, has ever said anything ill towards me or about me. And there may be a reason why. And you could find that out later as I tell my story. I didn't really talk about what we were. What my wife and I were doing when we left, just because I knew that we wouldn't see eye to eye. And I didn't. I didn't really want to cause a hard feeling between us. I just figured I would just move on and God would have a place for me somewhere. So I say all that, say this. I trusted Christ when I was 8 or 7 at a vacation Bible school there at the church in Virginia. I did stray away when I got in middle school, like a lot of kids. I grew my hair out. I had long hair. I played in rock bands. My parents didn't have a problem with it. My parents were separated for a few years, and then they got back together when I was in middle school and they got really dedicated to church, and we were there every time the doors were open. But my parents never tried to make me change that about me. But when I was in middle school, our church had a youth pastor who they brought in, and he happened to be from down in Walkertown, North Carolina, down at Gospelite. And he would drive up on Wednesday nights and on Sundays. And, you know, and I'm so thankful for. And you guys have said this, too, I'm so thankful for the love for God's word and it being the rule of faith and practice in our lives. And it's just very Very good that God had that in my life. But this youth pastor would come up and, and he was, he was really good. It was something, you know, something I needed in my life to be able to hear God's word. I was listening to music that was not point me that way, point of grace. No, it was, it was a whole lot worse than that. Let's try Metallica and Guns N Roses. [00:22:13] Speaker B: We're opening up that for Easter. [00:22:15] Speaker A: Yeah, Just kidding. But so when, when I was in high school and I was in public school. So I'm, I'm not, just to be honest with you, I'm not pro Christian school or homeschooling or whatever. I'm not also pro public school. I'm. I'm for whatever God has, has for your family. [00:22:39] Speaker B: Sure. [00:22:39] Speaker A: And whatever, however he leads you to do that same. And so I was in public school and I had a science teacher who was a believer there in that rural community. And he, he showed us. I don't know, I don't know if you've ever seen the movie about the elephant man. It was a black and white movie way back when. And it gave, gave this guy's true account of his life. And I was sitting there and in school and this, this guy, this elephant man, he was in a circus and people would abuse him pretty much. And, and so what, what would happen is, is that he would lean into the scripture and quote the Psalms. I was hearing this in public school. And so the Lord began to like, you know, you know, press upon my heart. You know, this, this guy, he's in a cage and he's quoting the Psalms and finding his help in me. And here you are, you're out here, you know, doing what you want to do and you're being rebellious and all that stuff. I didn't, I never did really do anything really bad, but I knew that I was not walking. I didn't have a daily abiding with the Lord. So that summer, you know, there was two things that happened in our summer. There was always youth camp and it was a youth conference. And the youth conference took place at Gospelite and the camp took place at Gospelites camp. We were connected that way. And my youth pastor's wife talked me into going to this youth conference. Okay? I didn't fit in. I was a long haired blonde. I had really long hair and I was blonde, skinny. And I knew I didn't fit in. That's why I didn't want to go. But I went, I went anyway and, and I sat there and I, you know, I listened to what was being said and there were some messages, you know, that we would talk about where you felt like people were trying to get people down the aisle. Of course, it was a youth conference and they did all kinds of crazy stuff at youth conference and. But I do have one memory of getting on an elevator with this guy. And I know he means well and I know he meant well. And he hands me a track and he said, this will show you how to get to heaven. And I know the only reason he hand me the track was because I had long hair. [00:25:04] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [00:25:07] Speaker A: So I handed it back to him because, I mean, I knew I was saved. I knew that I had trusted Jesus, you know, but during that youth conference, I began to, you know, I knew things needed to change in my life and I knew I wasn't going anywhere good continuing down the road I was on. So when youth conference, I kind of just gripped the pew. And I will say this, I don't think it was anything that anybody was necessarily saying up front that was already going on in my heart. You know, God was already doing a work, so. And I was on the verge of tears because God's word was doing a work in my heart. And then, you know, this was kind of just one of those summers where, you know, camp happened the next week. And I, I went to camp and I was the only long haired, blonde, long haired kid there. And I had one of my buddies who played in the band with me and, and he had a little bit longer hair. We come walking down the, we come walking down this, you know, sidewalk. It was more like a dirt road in front, in front of the canteen or the cafeteria. And this guy whistles at us. It was one of the other guys from the Christian School Gospelite. And we were ready to go up there and whoop him. You know, it was just frustrating. [00:26:30] Speaker B: But what year was that? [00:26:31] Speaker A: That was 1995, I want to say. Okay, yeah, I was, I was going from 10th to 11th grade, you know, and I will say this, is that the people there at the camp were real gracious. I know that's not the case for some people when they go to, you know, independent Fundamental Baptist camps. Yeah. But I will say this, that I don't think that I would be where I am today if it wasn't for people like Steve Roberson, who was there. I know that name goes back a long ways for some people. But, you know, there wasn't a level of judgmentalism upon me because I was there and I had long Hair. Nobody said anything about cutting my hair or anything. And I know that sounds strange to some people, but that's, but so I leave camp and I come home and, and I do decide to follow Jesus. And it was him drawing me to himself. And I can't say how much I'm thankful for that time and what he did. But it wasn't too long after that that I answered the call in the ministry. That was 1996. I was 16. So here's the deal. With that came a lot of other things and that's where everything starts kind of going south for me when it comes to identity. Because, because in that world your identity is your calling. [00:28:19] Speaker B: Sure. [00:28:20] Speaker A: And they make comments about I wouldn't step down from being the president. I mean I wouldn't step down from, from being a pastor to be the president. Or you know, they make those comments and, and, and that's a skewed way of looking at things because at that point your position or your hope, the, the position you hope to have one day as whatever that means becomes the forefront of your thinking. [00:28:52] Speaker B: Yep. [00:28:54] Speaker A: And so, but with that comes a lot of other things. So now I am a 16 year old guy who don't, who, who didn't grow up with all the extra biblical things. My, the church I grew up in didn't have the pastor there never said anything about my long hair. He was always like, the Spirit will reveal that to him when it's time. [00:29:16] Speaker B: Sure. [00:29:17] Speaker A: You know, and he would say that and he was a very gracious man. But, but as, as I, you know, answered the call to the ministry then that meant, okay, there's some things that, that needed to happen. Okay. So now we're looking at conferences. So we go from, I go from, from not having all the extra biblical things to go into Soar Lord conference. And I'm not, I'm not speaking, speaking ill about them in any way but you know, to each their own. And I know how some people feel about that that have left and then that's fine, you have your feelings. But what I'm saying is, is that you, you go from not having that to start going to this, to this hyper, let's add all this stuff and, and then in order to, to really be accepted in all that and have a belonging and that's what I was trying, I'm trying to get to is like you, you, you got to feel like you belong somewhere in order to have a belonging. You have to embrace all you, you don't just embrace the fundamentals, you have to embrace all the stuff that go along, that goes along with it. [00:30:34] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:30:35] Speaker A: And so, you know, so you hear all these different things that are said about what women should wear and they, what, what they shouldn't wear or what men should wear and what they shouldn't wear. Or you start hearing all the, all the arguments about versions of scriptures and then you start getting, you know, you start hearing pastors from a platform call out other pastors who not aren't in their circles. And sometimes that what was said was, was third and fourth hand information. It wasn't from the, from the horse's mouth, you know, and, and then you, you start getting all these extra things. Well, so the sad thing is about the extra things that you start adding in to the fundamentals is depending on the church you go to, you get a different list. So can you imagine somebody who, who, who got, who in their lifetime has been to three or four different, in you know, independent fundamental churches and they've got this long list of things they have to try to keep up with in order for, yeah. In order for God to bless them and be, to be pleased with them. [00:31:49] Speaker B: It's miserable. [00:31:50] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's a miserable life and it never, and the Christian life was never meant to be that way. [00:31:56] Speaker B: Yeah. You're never going to be able to meet it. [00:31:58] Speaker A: All right. And so I always go back to this. I mean the fundamentals are the fundamentals. It's the core beliefs of scripture and it's the foundation. But it's, you know, there, there's some point in the past where the foundation wasn't good enough. But I, you know, so, but I always go back to this that I don't think, I don't think it's the foundation wasn't good enough. I think that pastors felt the need to be the Holy Spirit, the lives of their people, they had to circle the wagons. And so you had, and that goes all the way back to the 60s. You know, they always go back to the idea, well, when prayer was taken out of school. Now, now we got to start Christian schools in order for our kids to be in a good environment. And I get that. But what we did is we took the salt out of the, out of the world at that point. [00:32:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:53] Speaker A: And then, then you have to make sure, yeah, you have to make sure that you're protecting your people as that's the next thing. It's, it's, you know, circle, let's circle the wagons and the only. And then, then what happens next? Then you have to like in order to keep your people doing certain things, then you have to start, like having a banned book list of authors you can't read after because they're preaching, quote unquote, heresy. You, you know, so you've got all this stuff. And I understand warning people about people who are off in left field. But, but when you're, when you're doing that, what you're doing is, is creating an echo chamber that's on that. That is only. That. That is only nurtured and cared for by the man up top. And I'm not talking about the one in heaven. I'm talking about the one at the. That's the head pastor. [00:33:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:49] Speaker A: So that doesn't go anywhere good. So here I am, I start going to sword conferences, and then I, you know, I start embracing all these things. And I cut, you know, of course I cut my hair. That's the first thing, you know, I never would have been accepted with that. And then, you know, let's fast forward a couple years now. I want to try to hurry through that, through this piece of it. But, you know, I'm looking to go to school because I'm called to ministry and called to the ministry as a call to prepare. You know, that's. That's the thing that, that's always said. And, and it's true. I mean, you should, you know, try to, you, you should study scripture. You stood. You should aspire to that. But, you know, so I'm trying to figure out where I'm going to go. Okay. And there's these couple of colleges floated to me, and I, you know, I didn't grow up in a. In a pastor's home. Yeah, I grew up in a. In a home of. I grew up in Bassett, Virginia, where there was furniture factories and my whole family were furniture workers. So I didn't have. I didn't have this opportunity to have certain scholarships come my way or, or I had to work for everything I was going to have when it came to school. And so my mom really wanted me to go to Liberty, and she kept saying it over and over, but my problem was, you know, I traded one type of rebellious. One type of a rebellious heart when I was not following Jesus as a middle schooler in early high school. And I was rebellious that way, and I turned into another rebellious person who thought I was right about everything. And my mom was trying to get me to go to Liberty, and I just kept telling her, I'm not going to Liberty, and you'll get a kick out of this because they're too liberal. Yeah. Now, I tell people that in the circles I'm in now, and they're like, what? [00:35:51] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [00:35:54] Speaker A: So my youth pastor had went to a church and had went to a college here in Greenville, where I'm at here currently pastoring. And it just happened to be Tabernacle Baptist College. And I'll say, I got a lot of great things at Tabernacle work ethic at that point. When I went to Tabernacle, there was a really strong emphasis on expository preaching, which there are some that had left there that didn't. That wasn't that way. But when I was in 2004 going. I mean, well, 2001 to 2004, going to school, we had professors who were really strong on expository preaching, and I'm so thankful for that. And my pastor there, and I eventually worked under him as his assistant, was very helpful to me in ministry and gave me a lot of opportunities. And there was one statement that I remember from school. Don't study to preach. Study to live. You know, so, you know, and, you know, always remember that. So here I am, I'm going. I'm graduating high school. I go. I go to Tabernacle. I go there for a month, like, this isn't for me right now. I go home, and I come back two years later and start school in 2001. I meet my wife. We get married the next summer. But one of the things that you start doing is you start embracing everything that you come in contact with because you want to belong. You want to find a place to fit in. And I was more than willing to embrace all those things because I had heard all the. All the stuff like, I wanted to be right with God. I wanted to please God. I wanted to make sure that I was doing whatever it was in order for God to have his hand, let's say it like this, have his hand on the ministry that he would have for me in the future. And. And that meant you. You embraced whatever. Okay. So I go, you know, I go through college. I, you know, I graduate. In 2004, my wife and I moved to Texas. She was. She was from Mission, Texas. Her dad was a Christian school teacher. They'd been there for a few years. I went down there to pastor a mission work on the border of Mexico in Harlingen, Texas. But to support my income, I manage a radio station. Well, this radio station was at the church where she attended growing up. And this church was more affiliated with Bob Jones, but they had a lot of different. They Had a lot of people from different places, because you just don't go to South Texas just to be there. You know, you have a reason to be there. You don't go seven hours south of Houston and live on the border just because. So they had people from all different walks of fundamentalism and people from Maranatha Baptist College, people from Pensacola. There was people there in that ministry where the radio station was. There were people there from Pensacola, people from what used to be Northland, which is not around anymore. And, you know, so there's a big conglomeration. And my wife's dad was from Baptist Bible College. So you had this big conglomeration of people working in that ministry. And I was pastoring 45 minutes down the road. So what was. What was. What was strange about all that is that the radio station that I managed, they were playing. They would. They would play Bob Jones Chapel the morning because they ran that. But then you get John MacArthur at 12, and then you get Adrian Rogers, and you would get all these different people from different. Woodrow Kroll from Back to the Bible, and. And, you know, and J. Vernon McGee, which I grew up on. J. Vernon McGee from listening with him. My grandma. But, you know, you had all these different eclectic. [00:40:18] Speaker B: That's all. That's all J. Vernon McGee, right? [00:40:20] Speaker A: There it is. Yeah. I grew up. I cut my teeth on that. But so I'm. I'm in this radio station now, and. And I'm listening to all these different voices that. That I. While I was in school at Tabernacle. And, you know, if you're. If you're affiliated with Soar the Lord or know anything about that, you know, all those people are off limits to John MacArthur. Definitely off limits. You know, they always had their thing to say about the blood issue that he always. That they always went after him on. But so I'm listening and these. Quite some questions start popping in my mind at this point. It's like, okay, I was told that these guys didn't preach the gospel. And for the re. For the. For the simple fact that they weren't using King James Version. And so here I am listening to these guys, and they're preaching the gospel. And so I'm having this question in my mind, like, well, who's telling me the truth? And then, you know, there was other different things that I would hear. Like, you're always told. You're always told that these guys aren't preaching against sin, right? Well, I'm hearing these guys talk about sin, you know, so I am. I'm Starting to have some questions. Well, about a month after I got to that radio station, the, the, the, the lead pastor at the. Where. Where the radio station was, he, he leaves and moves and the, the assistant pastors left, and he has some different thoughts about all the standards and stuff. And, and he. And I start talking and, and so there's a little seed that's, that is planted right there. Well, about two years later, I moved back. I moved back up here to Greenville and to work at Tabernacle, the radio station. And, you know, I already have two kids, my two older boys, and my daughter comes in 2007. And, you know, and I'm working there, but, but I'm, I'm having all these different, you know, thought processes. And, and I, you know, and it gets more and more of a struggle to try to keep up with appearances. Not that I, you know, not that I didn't want. Want to try to. Not, not that I didn't, I didn't want to. What's the word I'm looking for? Live according to scripture. But it's, it's, it becomes very tiring. [00:43:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:09] Speaker A: So, so all this is going on and I'm, I'm beginning to feel like I feel some burnout because ministry isn't what ministry should be in my mind. And, and there was some other scenarios that were happening that happened with, with some kids that were in my youth group. And, you know, and I began to question, what are we really doing here? Are we going to make disciples or are we just going to give people this pseudo Christian philosophy? And when I say that, what I mean is that there's this idea of this super Christian that we tell people that if you do all these things, then you're going to live this idea of this victorious Christian life out of Joshua. [00:43:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:58] Speaker A: And God's going to be all on your life and all that. And, and, and I didn't see that translating over to other people's lives. I didn't, you know, and so we can fast forward from there and, and get to about 2008. And this is where the, this is where things start getting real for me. My parents were visiting and I, I, by that point, I wasn't. Wasn't working for the radio station there. I, I was, I was working as student, like the minister, they call it Minister of youth, whatever. But I had, I'd moved from the radio station. I was, I was an assistant to the pastor at Tabernacle, and I had, my parents had come in to visit, and my wife Erin was Making a meal for Sunday. This happened to be Saturday, and we had bought a brand new crock pot. And so she was trying to get something together so it could cook and be ready in time for church to be over. So when she got the new one, I took the old one out and set it on top of the, the trash can outside of our house. And, and so she figures out that the recipe was going to be too big for the one she bought. She needed the old one back, you know, so I, I go outside and I walk outside barefoot and get, get the old one. That still worked. It just wasn't something. It just had a dent or something in it and you know, you know, and I was going to bring it back in. We're going to use it. So it had been raining, I was barefoot. I come, come inside and I step into the kitchen and take three steps and I slip and fall. And the, the crock pot, you know, the, the actual metal piece that, that plugs in the wall, it, it went somewhere. I don't know where it ended up. But when I failed, the ceramic part insert landed under my back and shattered. And, you know, and, and I didn't know it at that moment, but in the next couple days and weeks, I was going to be in excruciating pain. So fast forward a couple weeks and I'm laying on a couch. I can't, you know, I can't stand up for a long time. I can't sit for a long time, can't lay for a long time. And I'm just doing my best to get by with the pain. And so I am at home on Sundays for a couple weeks. I could, I could have logged, you know, turned the radio on because they had a radio station listened live to services, and I did some of that. But it's. The Lord was like, you know, really giving me this desire to really see a Service. This was 2008, 2009, before, like live Stream was like a big thing. But the only churches I knew at that point that I could find that was Livestream on the Internet was Harvest Christian Fellowship out of Riverside, California. It's Greg Laurie, of course, and then we also had DirecTV so we could watch Thomas Road and, and then I was watching different other ministries. And as I began to watch, I started hearing their music, you know, and I, I know, and I know all the arguments about music. I mean, I'm not going to go down that road. But you know, I was listening to their music and, and then I would hear the preaching and Then, you know, these battles and struggles started in my mind again, you know, these guys don't preach the truth. Well, then I'm listening and they are preaching the gospel without any hesitation, talking about sin. But here's the deal, here's the difference, okay? It was a preaching about sin that wasn't trying to manipulate or wasn't trying to change behaviors, but it was leaned at in a way to where there was going to be a change of heart. So I, I started having all that. It was just a bunch of stuff going on. You know, the King James thing, you know, was a big, was a big issue that, that I struggle with. So my wife had been seeing this chiropractor and so she decided to, to schedule me an appointment with a chiropractor here in town. And, and so I go to see this chiropractor and I don't know, I don't know if she had been talking to him or not. But when I, when I go to see him, you know, he, he does his adjustment. He does all the things and he, he hands me a piece of paper and he says, he says, looks like you're, you're struggling through something. He didn't, he didn't really know at that moment what, what was really going on in my heart, in my mind. He said, would you be willing to talk to my mentor? I said, sure. Well, on the paper there was just a number. There wasn't a name. He didn't give me a name. I didn't really pay attention when he gave it to me. So I leave out of there. I go, I get my car and I drive back to church to try to do some things. And I called this guy on the phone, okay, So I dialed this number on my office phone. I didn't think anything about it. Dial this number. And a gentleman picks up and he said, hi, this is Walt. And I said, hi, Walt. And I told him who I was. He says, well, I see one thing, I see where you're calling from. He said, you need to hang the phone up right now and you need to call me on your cell phone because if they find out you're calling me, then you'll, you're going to lose your job where you are right now. And so I call him back on my cell phone. And as we're talking, I figure out why Walt doesn't want me to call him on the office phone. That's because this Walt was Walt Hanford, who was John Rice's son in law. And I had already heard all the Stories about all the things that happened in the past between, you know, Walt and Bob Jones and Tabernacle and Soar the Lord and all that stuff. You know, he was not in good graces with anybody when it comes to all that. That realm of things. So he schedules me to come to his house and talk to him. And if you're. If the listeners don't know who Walt Hanford is. Walt Hanford was the pastor of Southside Baptist Church in Greenville. [00:51:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:05] Speaker A: Which is now Fellowship Greenville. Walt was the pie. I call him the pioneer recovering fundamentalist because he made changes in the 1980s that was not easy to make and there was no place to belong unless you made new friends. [00:51:21] Speaker B: Yep. [00:51:22] Speaker A: So. And I've got a book that he. A little pamphlet he gave me that talks about new ways to give the gospel. I'd have to look it up, the title of it. I still got it. I think I got one of the only copies left, but it went through his whole story. But anyway, I went to go meet with him, and here he is. He's standing outside, and I have my minivan, and he's looking down the road because he's afraid somebody had followed me. And he. He. He pulls my van in the bushes so nobody sees me, you know, because he's. He's been through. He's been through all he knows. Yeah. So I will say this. I walked into his house, and his house was right here in Greenville. It was on the side of, like, a little small lake over off Pelham Road. If you have anybody who's listening to the podcast from Greenville. And he called. The. The address for where he was at was called Peace on Shannon. And I. And I. And I have to tell you that there was only a couple places in my life that I ever walked into a house and could sense the peace of God more. You know, I could sense it there. [00:52:33] Speaker B: Right. [00:52:33] Speaker A: I walked in and he was gracious, and. And I sat down with him and we talked about where I was, what I was thinking. And he gave me two options. He said, you either got two options. Either you either leave where you are, you take a step away from legalism. [00:52:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:55] Speaker A: Or you stay in it and reap the repercussions of it. Now, you know, I know you guys have probably dealt with the. Dealt with the term legalism before, but I know that, and I know that people who aren't recovering fundamentalists listen to this podcast. [00:53:13] Speaker B: Sure. [00:53:15] Speaker A: So I now know the argument legalism to the. To the fundamental world, legalism is adding to salvation. That's where they stop with it. [00:53:28] Speaker B: Sure. [00:53:31] Speaker A: And you know, if we read the book of Galatians. Yeah. That, that's part of it. You know, Jesus plus anything equals nothing. And Jesus plus nothing equals everything. [00:53:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:42] Speaker A: And, but, but if you really want to dive into what legalism really is and you want to take the book of Galatians at its word, then really what, what Paul was trying to get at was there was these people who came into the church who told the Galatians that if you, if you add circumcision to your salvation, you will be a super Christian. [00:54:08] Speaker B: Right. [00:54:09] Speaker A: It wasn't, it wasn't the initial let's get in the door salvation. He was talking to people who already knew who Jesus was, who were going to add circumcision on top of it to make them even, even better Christian. That's what true legalism is. It's adding anything to Jesus at salvation or in my sanctification, trying to get God to give me greater blessing. I'll often look at it like this. Like I go to McDonald's and I order a six piece McNugget and they put seven in there. And our thought process is if you're, if you're, if you've been brought up in that whole thing, that think tank or that idea is your thought process. Process is one of that seventh one must be a blessing from God. What did I do good this week? [00:55:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:04] Speaker A: You know, and that's not how God operates. [00:55:06] Speaker B: Right. [00:55:06] Speaker A: You know, so Walt's talking about the, that legalism thing. And I'm still trying to filter through, you know, this, this definition that was given to me about legalism. And I'm thinking, okay, we got to do something about this. I got to figure out what he's talking about. He gives me two books. He gives me his, his little pamphlet and he tells me to go read Grace Awakening and I go do it. I read, I read Grace Awakening. I'm like, I get why he says reap the repercussions because there was a, there was a scenario in the Grace Awakening of this really old gentleman that, that Chuck Swindoll was, had dealt with who, who grew up in the church. And the church they grew up, they went to didn't, didn't allow movies. But his family on the weekends would drive two towns over and go watch movies and then go to church the next day. And his dad would say, amen to the idea of it being bad to watch movies. And this older gentleman struggled with even trusting Jesus because of that thought process, because it was A double standard. And my wife and I began to talk and. And we decided we didn't. We didn't want our kids to grow up in that type of environment. Now, my wife was way ahead of me. She had. And this was. This was a no, no for her. But she. She had started going to mops over in the town next to Greenville called Powdersville. Mothers are preschoolers. And she met a friend over there, and she's. They've been best friends ever since, but she met a friend over there who began to talk to us about, you know, about a few different things. And Erin began to see what grace was before I did, and she began to pray through that. And so here we are. We decide it's time. But Walt Hanford told. He warned me about a few things that was going to happen. He said, number one, he said, if you decide that you are going to leave, he said, you can. You're gonna have to count on it, that you're going to be alone. [00:57:14] Speaker B: Sure. [00:57:15] Speaker A: You're gonna lose your friends and ministry. He said. He said, number two, you're gonna have to start all the way over from the beginning. [00:57:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:26] Speaker A: And I didn't know if I was willing to do that or not, but. And he said, number three, you're gonna have to find. He said what? He called. He said, you're gonna have to find your Moses moment. He said, you're gonna have to find your Red Sea. And he said, you're going to find a way to cross the Red Sea to the other side. He said, you're gonna have to have a stepping off point. And I, you know, and I didn't realize, you know, what all that meant. He did. He made changes in the 80s. Yeah. He made those changes that, you know, put him on the outs. What. When it came to us, the to virgin, the scripture, to. To changing music, to. To, you know, not requiring women to have two different wardrobes. That was his language, you know, So I didn't understand all that, all of what that meant when I met with him. And late. I want to say that was late 2008, maybe it was 2009. My ears kind of fuzzy there for that. But so we met with him. Soon after that, we found out Aaron's dad had cancer. They were living up here at that point. And, you know, we were trying to work through all those bits and pieces of things, but, you know, as I started listening to other people I came in contact with, with this radio program called Walking the Word. And they started talking about this training center, this ministry Training center that they started back in 2008 or nine. And, you know, and I heard this guy preaching and I was like, this guy, he's got some fervor about him. I like that. But, you know, he's also not exactly like what I've been in. And I was hearing some of the things that were going on. I like kind of like what they're doing. But, you know, this was kind of a dream, per se. So I print some stuff off, bring it home, and show it to Aaron. And I'm like, you know, here's. Here's something that I think could be our red Sea, you know, our stepping off moment and, you know, step stepping out. And I. I just kind of put that in the. On the back burner. And it just say there, you fast forward a year, it comes back and I call them on the phone. I kind of get some information and then. But that. By that time, the summer of 2000, 2010, I had a mutual acquaintance with, that was connected to a Southern Baptist church here in town. And I started talking to the pastors there and they. They needed a student pastor. And so this was almost like a sure done deal. And. And so they, they finalize everything, quote, unquote. And we. I announced at tabernacle, we're leaving. I didn't tell anybody what, what the reason was for or why I thought that was. That that was a moot discussion. There wasn't any reason to have discussion over the things because they're going to continue to think the way they think about things. And that's fine. That's totally their prerogative. So I resigned. I leave Tabernacle September 2010, and I'm supposed to go to this Southern Baptist Church in two weeks to be their student pastor. But in the meantime, we decided to go to this church called Grace Church here in Greenville, which is one of the. One of the main churches here. They have a bunch of campuses. And I sit there and I hear a message from God's word that day, and I'm like, I've never experienced anything like this. [01:01:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:21] Speaker A: In person. And the music was. I mean, was. The music was scriptural. It just didn't have the flare. It had a different flair to it. It was more modern, sure, than. Than what. What I had grown up with. But I liked it. I mean. And so we leave there and I tell Aaron, I was like hearing that. I'm almost. I almost feel like I'd be okay being there and just not going to the other place, you know, to work in Ministry and well, I didn't know this, but something happened and the job fell through and I was left high and dry. So that's what, that's what happened. We ended up going to Grace Church and some of the best things that could have ever happened in our lives happened there. [01:02:09] Speaker B: Sure. [01:02:10] Speaker A: Starting with Men's roundtable. I never had anything like that happen with, with what it meant to be a man. Masculinity. And then they had a thing called Azer that talked about women's roles and you know, all that was really good for us because we had never walked through any of that. There's not really a mentoring type thing that I can see that really happens as far as discipleship happens in the fundamentalist Baptist world like I see now. So we're there, Grace Church and fast forward another year. My wife's dad is not doing real well and we had moved out of staff housing at Tabernacle, moved in with them because we didn't have anywhere else to go. And I was working a part time job, she was working a part time job. We have five kids. Don't know what God's going to do next. Have no clue. But my, my wife's dad looked over at me and he said, when you gonna send your information in for this training school in Chicago? I told him, I said I hadn't thought about it. He said, well, I've been praying about it, I think you should do it. And he never told me anything like that. So I, I send all the information in and you know, here I am with my Bible college degree and I'm, I'm in the running with all these other guys who had been to master's in Dallas Seminary, Dallas Theological Seminary, you know, all these guys who had seminary training and I didn't, I was from this unknown school to them, sure. In Greenville. And they called me back. I was surprised. I'm like out of 100 people you're calling me. But I didn't know that was part of what God was doing to give us a taste of what was different about ministry world. So fast forward to August. My wife's dad passed away in July. And then we go up to move up to harvest and I'm in the training center to plant a church. And every day seems surreal to me because I'm, I mean I'm, I'm in something totally different. I'm in a different type part of the world. And, and I'm, and I, you know, I, you know, I'm learning all this stuff, you know, and they Want me to go back to Greenville to plant a church. And I, I did not want to do that. [01:04:40] Speaker B: Right. [01:04:41] Speaker A: Because there was churches everywhere and I didn't want to deal with the possible backlash of people thinking that I just left where I was in order to go start something across town. [01:04:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:55] Speaker A: But they sent me back to Greenville after is all said and done. I hit the ground in February of 2012. Harvest had a pretty rigorous planting process. They wanted you to be up and going and have. Have a good number of people and good offerings coming in by September. And things don't move that fast in the south, you know, and things, Things never, things never get. Get up and off the ground that quick. So we get to about September and, you know, and they, they see that it's not going to work out well for them to have a plant, so they pull away. And all this is part of God doing something to me. [01:05:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:39] Speaker A: Okay. For his glory. I get to probably about December that year. And I'm just struggling because, you know, I had. I had left fundamentalism. I had in fundamentalist legalism, let me put it that way. I'd left the legalistic part of all that. [01:06:00] Speaker B: Sure. [01:06:01] Speaker A: And I still believe the scripture. And here I was, and I did go do this training, move my family halfway across the country and then back, and that doesn't pan out. And. And I'm. I'm struggling in my mind like God, God, why are. You know, I thought I made the right decision to leave. Where are you at? What. What are you doing? You know, and, you know, you could fast forward to April, to April of 2013. I had just started a job working in a cabinet shop and somebody sideswipes me on the interstate and my van rolls down the interstate. It's funny because. Because before that happened, before I got hit, you know, what was on the radio. 10,000 Reasons was playing while I was rolling down the down. [01:06:53] Speaker B: That's unreal. [01:06:55] Speaker A: So I'm laying on the, you know, I'm laying there in my. In the van seat with my van all tore up. Nothing wrong with me. I just got a scratch on my arm and the keys had came out of the ignition and were laying over somewhere. And the radio was still running and 10,000 reasons was still going, you know, craziness. But, you know, so go from that, I mean, and you know, I end up in. Because I already had a back injury. I was had, you know, going to physical therapy, you know, so the job I had just gotten, I had lost because of all that. That, you know, and that was Frustrating. Fast forward a few months, I get another job and I'm working that, and then that, that, that one is gone within a year. And I'm just struggling in my mind there. I, I'm going to tell you, there's a few years that I do not remember because I, because I went and I, I know I was battling depression. [01:08:01] Speaker B: Sure. [01:08:01] Speaker A: Because I was questioning why God was doing what he was doing. I was questioning his goodness in a lot of ways. And I know I, I know what people will say. And I, and, and I, and I often had this thought in my mind, you know, if. If the world I left, the fundamental legalistic world I left, were to see where I was at that moment in, in battling depression, questioning God, they would say, well, see, I told you if, if you, we told you if you left that God's protection would be off your life. [01:08:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:40] Speaker A: You've heard that before, right? [01:08:41] Speaker B: I've heard it. Yep. [01:08:43] Speaker A: And so by this time in 2013, we started Father's Day of 2013. We started going to fellowship Greenville, here in Greenville, South Carolina, which is a great church, you know, And I would sit on the, on the. Not pews, but chair. I would sit in a chair and I would listen and I would. And I would like, not really question what people are saying from the platform, but I would. I was gauging who they were and their sincerity about who they were. And there was times I would just go sit on the chair there and listen. There were. Sometimes I wouldn't sing. There was. Mornings I would wake up and didn't feel like going to church because I had felt like that God had just, you know, taking me through all those bits and pieces. The problem was this. And I finally. And today I can look back and see this. My identity was wrapped up in what I thought God should do in my ministry. [01:09:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:54] Speaker A: And there was a saying that continued to come back to me over and over again when I was back when I was training at harvest between 2000 in 2011, Paul Tripp happened to come to us and have a class with us, 10 guys who were in the training and our wives. And Paul Tripp is wonderful as far as when he talks about heart transformation and behavioral modification, getting to the idols of the heart and all that. He made this statement that would always ring in my brain. And I would get frustrated because it was there, but it was a spirit reminding me. And that that saying was that God's not after a successful ministry ever. He's after your heart. [01:10:39] Speaker B: That's it. [01:10:40] Speaker A: And so I realized that I had my identity wrapped up in those things. [01:10:45] Speaker B: Sure. [01:10:46] Speaker A: And so I'm at Fellowship Greenville, and, you know, and they are, you know, going through the book of Hebrews. You know, we, you know, they go through the book of Romans. They go through, you know, and I'm. I'm just there soaking these things in. Okay. In 2016, this job falls in my lap that I wasn't planning for, is at a radio network here in town, and I. I start working there. Then my wife, Erin, she had. She had decided she wasn't waiting any longer to serve in the ministry of Fellowship. And she told me, she said, I don't know what you're going to do, but she said, I'm. I'm going to start serving in children's ministry. [01:11:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:11:33] Speaker A: I said, okay, that's fine. You know, she. She drove first service, and I would stay at home, and I'd drive and meet him later. Well, in the. In the fall of 2016, she. She said, I need someone to help out and children's ministry on Sunday. Would you be willing to take the, you know, the background check and get, you know, certified to be there to work in the children's ministry? And I thought about it for about an hour or two, and I said, yeah, I'll do that. So I remember distinctly being in children's ministry that morning. And, you know, and I was just in there kind of as a floater. My daughters were doing the children's ministry work with the kids and stuff, and I was just in there overseas as an adult, and I remember looking out at the playground in the back of Fellowship Greenville as I was waiting for the kids to come in. And the spirit impressed this upon my heart. See, you don't have to be doing what you think ministry is. This is ministry right here. And I have to tell you, that's when, like, the depression just. It just went away. I know it's not that easy for everybody, but it just. It went away. And, you know, and, you know, our struggle from 2010 to 2016 and a little bit on, it's like we struggle financially because we had to start all over. [01:13:15] Speaker B: Sure. [01:13:18] Speaker A: You know, there was times where we didn't know where our rent was coming from. We didn't know where the next meal was coming from. There was a lot of times where, you know, I would go to work in the morning and I would come home and my wife would go work at the mall in the evening. You know, we were doing everything we could do to make it. But in those times, that's When God was peeling the onion back to get to my heart. And, and I, I. And I can't be more grateful to God for doing that. [01:13:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:56] Speaker A: So, you know, we get to 2016, on to, you know, on to. And I'll, I'll wrap this up to about 2022. I'm working at the radio station and I, I am, I'm going back and forth with the Lord about a few things, and I, you know. You know, and there was still this, this, this urge or this inclination to want to be working in ministry in church fashion some way somehow. But, but I, you know, it was that last thing that God had to do to, to strip, Strip things away from me. And I, I distinctly remember being up one morning and early and just saying, lord, if I never step foot behind a pulpit or whatever you want to call it, you know, up on stage ever again, I'll be totally happy doing whatever it is that I'm doing now. And I was just at peace with that, you know, fellowship. Greenville started this thing called Upstate Church Collective where they were planting some churches and, but that, you know, that wasn't the beginning stages of it. The beginning stages of. They started a discipleship class, and hopefully in the years to come, they would be able to get something like planting going. But so they want, they just wanted to build strong disciples. So I wrestle with that. I didn't want to jump into that because I didn't want to have any kind of, like, preconceived notion on my part it was going anywhere. But the Spirit kept saying, you know, or, you know, give. Impressing me, you know, if you don't do this, you're going to miss out on something. That was the thought that kept coming to my mind. And so, yeah, I joined this discipleship class and go through it as a participant. And then the next year I go through it as I lead three other guys through. [01:16:18] Speaker B: That's cool. [01:16:20] Speaker A: And, you know, we are going through what the gospel means, what it looks like to understand the story of the Scriptures, and what it means to understand the gospel and what that means for your heart and what it means to have intimacy and community with people, intimacy with God, communion with people, and be on mission with Jesus, and what it looks like to take risk and serve and ask good questions. It was all those nine. There was nine things that we kind of. And it's just like the Lord was like, this is what I brought you through, all these things to get you to hear so you can have a good understanding of all these. Yeah, you know, and, and, and so I am, I'm sitting there thinking, man, this is. And I'm just soaking it all in. I mean I, I had been a believer since I was 7. I had went to Bible college, I had been in ministry. I had, you know, you know, listened to a lot of messages. But when it came down to really knowing the core of all those things that I, that I thought I knew, I did know. But in practice, how did it work out in your life? Like all those things, like just started like ingraining themselves. What the gospel is, what it looks like for God to work out his story in your life, you know, so we, my family and I go up to West Virginia. My son, my oldest son was in this thing called One Life, which is a gap year program. And he is like an experiential thing. And so we went up there and for his graduation that they have for that. And we drove back and the next day I meet with who is Jason Malone, who is now the directional pastor at Fellowship Greenville. And we're just talking about things. We'd met a couple times and he said we've got this opportunity coming up. I was like, what do you mean? He's like, well, he started telling me about this church that the pastor was retiring and that they, that they had approached this Upstate Church collective or Fellowship Greenville and the partner church, Summit Church here in Greenville, and they approached them about, you know, restarting a ministry. I was like, okay. And I talked to Jason before, I was like, okay. I don't want to give stipulations, but if I ever considered this, the Lord would have to work out these things, right? And we're talking and he's like, well, here's the thing. The Lord's worked out your list. And, and the other thing is like, you know, with, with, with the, the philosophy of like Fellowship Greenville and Upstate Church Collective, there's, there's this idea of interdependence and leadership where, you know, they just don't send out one pastor to plant, they send out two guys together. [01:19:26] Speaker B: Right? [01:19:27] Speaker A: And, and I like that based off of Mike's other experiences with planting and you know, and the other thing was that there was a brand new building already bought and paid for that was a total another God story that's not part of all this. But you know, we as a, as church planters, we walk into a building that, that's paid, bought, that's paid for, has no debt. Yep, has no debt, has everything we need. Had an old pre. Had a preschool, I mean, and it's right on the main thoroughfare in Greenville Pelham Road. And you know that the Lord worked all that out. And. But when you talk about on the road to recovery, and then I'm talking and I'm thinking through the being redeemed from a broken identity, and then God's big story that he's writing is redemption story, God had to bring me to the point to where I was willing to hold things with an open hand. [01:20:30] Speaker B: Yep. [01:20:34] Speaker A: And I'll go back to all this. That's a long story. I know. And it takes a lot of time to walk through all that. But. But I'll go back. I'm going to revisit a couple of things from the past here now. You know, the road after leaving fundamentalism was not easy. I think I've already said that. I mean, I had. I had friends that. That were. That were really good friends, that our relationship went cold. A relationship where we talked every day. And when they found out that I was not using King James, we went to talking not at all. Now some of that relationship is a little bit better, but we don't talk every day. We don't. We don't even have that kind of relationship. We're not. We were best friends. There was a lot of hateful things that were said once people found out I was at Harvest. I mean, I got. I got this long, you know, back when, you know, on Facebook, people could post things on your. Your page. And I'm. I go on Facebook and I get this long. This long post. That wasn't mine. It was. Somebody put it. Put it on there, you know, really urging me to. To return to the faith, to stop embracing doctrines of the devil, and. And that I was leading my family astray to a. And this was. This was before I left. I mean, when I. When someone found out I was leaving, they didn't know why. I got an ugly letter up under my door when they said a bunch of hateful things. And I had that letter and somehow it made into all of my stuff. And one of my kids found it a few years ago. I wish they would never would have found it. You know, there's just all those different things, you know, and. And I do. I do want to, you know, say some things about the legalism part of it, because I think it cripples a lot of people's lives. I know y'all dealt with that, but we're still dealing with it. [01:23:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:02] Speaker A: I come in contact with people on a regular basis here in Greenville, and I think it is because of where we are. Greenville. Greenville is a heavy and has been a heavy, strict, legalistic, fundamentalist town. [01:23:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:19] Speaker A: And we come in contact with people regularly who have been. Either been hurt or, or who are struggling with what the gospel actually means. [01:23:31] Speaker B: Sure. [01:23:32] Speaker A: You know, and I will say this, I mean, and I've had some run ins with people over this and that's fine. And, and they can think whatever they want to think, but it's not right. You know, the, the whole idea of the King James version being the only way you can get. You can be, be saved. You know, I always come back to the thought process. If you add aversion to Jesus, then you believe in work, salvation. And I know that's tough, but that's the truth. And I want to say that as loving as I can, you know, there, there's all kinds of different things that you know that I, that, that I have, I've walked through and things that you know, that I, that I had struggled with and you know, and I don't want to continue on with, with, with all those bits and pieces, but one of the things I have, I have really come to understand is that just because you believe in grace doesn't mean that you believe in cheap grace. [01:24:44] Speaker B: Mm. [01:24:48] Speaker A: Just. Just because I believe in a grace based life doesn't mean I believe in licentiousness and living. Living by the world standards. [01:24:57] Speaker B: Sure. [01:24:59] Speaker A: You know, I've had, I've had things said about me that you know, that I, that, you know, what's, what's the term? I'm not, not heretic. But that, that, that I don't. That I've walked away from the faith. [01:25:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:20] Speaker A: And you know, the only stipulation in the, in, in the Epistles of John for someone walking away from the faith is that you deny that Jesus is the Christ, that he's the Son of God. [01:25:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:31] Speaker A: And I have not done that. [01:25:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:34] Speaker A: You know, the only things, the only things really changed about the way I think is, is I don't hold strictly to King James. I have leaned into it more of an elder led polity, you know, and really, those are the two really, really big things. [01:26:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:05] Speaker A: You know, the other things are just preferential. [01:26:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:09] Speaker A: What you think about music? You know, I'm of the, I'm of the opinion and this might, this might come off nonchalant to people. I don't care. [01:26:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:19] Speaker A: I've got to the point. I don't care. I mean, I'm not having that argument with you. [01:26:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:23] Speaker A: I've got to the point to where, the script diversion thing, I don't really care. I'm with you and I don't care about. And I, some people are going to judge me for this. I know, but I don't care about all your, your debates and all that stuff. Go spend all your time doing that. There's people who need to, who need to see Jesus more clearly. [01:26:45] Speaker B: We're on the same page. [01:26:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And you know, and there's all kinds of things that, that I've gotten to the point to where I don't really, it's not worth arguing over. The other thing that I will say is this is that and I'll be quiet after this. But the one other thing that always bothered me was the idea of accountability. Like whenever you brought up the idea of accountability within those circles, the Fundamental Baptist circles is the answer you would get back is I'm only accountable to God. [01:27:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:28] Speaker A: You know, and, and then there was this whole thing about well, why would I be transparent with people when there's some sins that are hidden and some sins that are public. And then, you know, and then you go on down that thing and, and I'm like, well then at that point you have to discuss scriptures. [01:27:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:47] Speaker A: Because the one and others in the New Testament are in the Bible. [01:27:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:54] Speaker A: And they specifically talk about like in the book of James, confess your faults one to another book of Hebrews, provoke one another or esv, stir up one another to love and to good works. It's all, it's all the idea of accountability and it's all the idea of, of loving one another and being in community with one another. [01:28:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:28:21] Speaker A: You know, and I know that in, in, in those circles that they, that you know, I'd always heard, I've heard, I'd heard people preach against small group life, group, all that, you know, and I don't see how you could do that. So. Yeah, I've taken a lot of time. [01:28:39] Speaker B: No, you're good. [01:28:40] Speaker A: Walking through all that, I could go on forever. I mean there's just a lot of stuff that here, I know could be said. [01:28:50] Speaker B: Here's what I love about your story. Would you say you love Jesus more today than you ever have? [01:28:55] Speaker A: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:28:59] Speaker B: Too many times we get told we're, we're going off the deep end. We're walking away from the faith where we're choosing the world's way versus Jesus and man. What we, what we have found is that we deconstruct from the legalistic man made ideology to following King Jesus even more oh, yeah, that's it. Yeah, man. Sam, I love your story. I love hearing it. I've heard it in bits and pieces over the last couple of years, but to sit and listen to it in one setting, just to see how God is weaving himself through your story. It's a picture of our stories intersecting with God's story to tell a better story. [01:29:38] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:29:39] Speaker B: And that's beautiful. And I want to encourage you to share your story. You can do that. Go to share my story rfpmail.com and who knows, maybe you'll be on here just like Sam is sharing his story. But I thank you for being here with us today. [01:29:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, it's good to be here. Hey, and I would say if you're listening today and. And you're in the place where you're trying to figure out what to do, there are people out there who've walked that road. [01:30:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:30:10] Speaker A: And willing to talk with you, you know, and who. Who are willing to be labeled the bad person for having those. Those conversations that need to be had. Yep. And I will say that, you know, find a good church. You know, find the support you need in. In places that. And you. And a lot of times it's going to be in places that. That are not in the circles that you're in. The. The other thing I would say for you today is if. If you are in ministry and you are trying to figure out your. Your next step out of all that, you don't have to jump right back into ministry. You. You can take some time to find out where you settle and all of it. [01:31:08] Speaker B: Yep. [01:31:09] Speaker A: God's God is not taken by surprise where you are. And I will say this. God knows where you are, and he has a plan and purpose and his timing for all those things he does. And if he never opens those doors again, if he never opens those doors again, here's what you're left with. You're left with him. [01:31:37] Speaker B: That's it. [01:31:38] Speaker A: You're left with Jesus. And he's our Savior. And he's better than any ministry position could ever be. [01:31:46] Speaker B: Hey, thanks for listening to the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast, episode number 188. What a powerful reminder that even in the darkest moments of religious bondage, there is a light. And that light is grace. That light is Jesus. And if you're walking a similar road, don't give up. Healing takes time, but freedom is real, and it's worth every step. Sam didn't just escape legalism. He tore down the walls that held him back and found a faith that actually sets people free. And if you're stuck in this man made religion, let this episode be your wake up call that Jesus didn't die so you could be a better rule follower. He came to set you free, to give you a better life than you could ever imagine right now. I want to thank you for listening to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. Please, like, subscribe, share, and let's keep flipping tables together. All right, we'll see you next time. Love you, kids.