[00:00:00] Speaker A: You are listening to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast, where faith and real life collide in a world full of noise, division and debate. We're here to cut through the clutter with honest conversations, bold truth, and a whole lot of grace. Whether you're questioning, growing, or just trying to make sense of it all, you've got a seat at the table. Let's join JC Groves for today's episode. Let's go.
The Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast starts in three.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: You know what makes women stupid is.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: Call Jesus was not a bartender.
[00:00:47] Speaker B: You have lost your mind. Long tongue.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: Heifers have given me a lot more trouble than heifers wearing britches. And you know that. Say amen right there.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: 1. Let me tell you something, bozo.
[00:00:58] Speaker A: They'll be selling Frosties in hell for this.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: Boy puts on a pair of pink underwear.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: I sucked my thumb till I was 14 years of age. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast, episode number 187. I'm your host, JC Groves, and today we are continuing our conversation on the pain of betrayal and the power of redemption. Now, in part one, we leaned into the heartbreak. What it feels like to be betrayed by people we trust, by leaders we followed, sometimes even by the very system that we're supposed to protect us. The kind of pain that can shake your foundation and leave you wondering if healing is even possible. Today on part two, it's about the other side of the story. Today we're talking about redemption not as a quick fix or cliche, but as something hard earned, deeply personal, and ultimately beautiful. How do you heal when trust has been shattered? What does it look like to rebuild not just your faith, but your identity in many regards? We're not doing this alone. Joining us today is a pastor, a friend. His name is Jacob Kessling. Someone who has walked through betrayal, wrestled with the weight of brokenness, and found a way to help others find redemption with both honesty and grace. Jacob brings a pastor's heart, a counselor's insight, and a whole lot of wisdom maybe to this conversation. Just kidding, but. And so whatever you're doing today, whether you're sitting in the pain or just beginning to hope again, this episode is for you. And I can't wait for you to hear Jacob's story here in just a moment.
Hey, we want to thank some of the sponsors of the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast, Mission University. In 1950, Mission University was founded with the mission of training Christ following leaders to tell the world about Jesus. The mission has remained the same through the years, and today they they continue to teach, to train, and to prepare great leaders to make a difference with their life. Mission U educates, inspires and equips students to serve as effective Christian leaders. You can find
[email protected]. also want to thank Josh Barzone for being part of the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. You can Visit him at brazedesigns.com Professional and affordable logo and graphic design for churches, businesses and more. Also, we have partnered with Tyndale Publishers. We're going to be giving away a new living translation. My favorite translation by the way. We're going to be giving away a premium Bible on my birthday May 25th, May 1st. You will be able to go to our social media, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, x TikTok and see all the ways to get connected to this giveaway. I want to thank Tyndale Publishers for for being part of the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast coming to you today. For those that will be watching on YouTube live from the well, not live recorded at the 148 Films studio here in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Daniel Ashworth, Skip Skipper what an incredible studio they have here and I'm excited to partner with them there.
So today's episode I'm really excited to jump into. This is part two of a conversation that we started on episode number 185 where I just sat down and shared my story. And I've enjoyed hearing from many of you who are walking through something very similar, have been through something similar and you were able to find some help and some hope in that. That's the power of a story as we looked at in the last episode, where when our stories intersect with God's story, it tells a greater story.
I would love to hear your story. You can share that with me@sharemyc mystoryrfpmail.com and I know many of you have taken advantage of that and have reached out there. But today I'm excited to have a good friend, a man I met 25 years ago on the Word of Life island up in Scroon Lake, New York. Jacob Kessling. Jacob was the boat captain. I was the boat driver and in fact he preached for us this Sunday at Hope Church. But before this weekend, it's been 25 years since we've laid eyes on each other and it feels like because of social media that our friendship has never really died off. We had about a 12 year period where we didn't talk to each other and then you just randomly popped up on Facebook one day. So Jacob, welcome to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast.
[00:05:32] Speaker B: JC so glad to Be here. You know, I actually am loving the fact that you're changing gears, switching gears and talking about this and even hearing your story. I listened to the episode as I was. I think I was painting or something.
Man, what a journey. And I know. I remember actually when I was in Baton Rouge kind of going through my own stuff, and you called me when you were struggling with one of the. One of those. The churches you were at. And I tell you what, some people really like to stay in that trauma and stay angry and stay frustrated and stay upset. And I think the first part of Beginning to Heal is being able to talk about it. So I'm thankful for you doing this episode and kind of helping people work through this stuff. There's a lot of people that left the church that want nothing to do with church or God, and there are a lot of pastors that are still hurting, and there's pastors that stepped out of ministry. And so this could be a. A great route to find some hope and find some light and maybe re. Engage that they weren't. So I'm just so thankful for that.
[00:06:23] Speaker A: You know, it's never easy to talk about that stuff because it's personal.
[00:06:28] Speaker B: Yeah, it is.
[00:06:28] Speaker A: And it actually has a lot of players involved because like we said on the last episode, betrayal, slander, hurt, being stabbed in the back. It normally always comes from somebody that's close to you that you have a relationship with. And so talking about it going to open up some wounds, but the only way to heal is to open them up and start putting ointment on them, if you will.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: That's exactly right. I love that you said that, because it does. You don't think about it so much. But, yeah, betrayal comes from someone close, and those wounds do hurt. And you don't want to go back to, like, the.
Go back to Scripture. You look at Jesus, and of course you have Judas who walked alongside him, and he's the one that betrays him. I mean, certainly he suffered in all things that he could sympathize with us, but man, wounds hurt for a long time, and how do you heal from them? Even though you move on to a new place, you know, sometimes it's easy just to carry those on. And so, yeah, when I listen to your story and the stuff you went through, I'm like, okay, my story isn't that bad, you know, because, I mean, it's wild. And I have some friends, some dear friends, one of which isn't in ministry right now, just has faced some really deep hurts and stuff. And man, is to walk through them, to walk with them through that. It really is hard. And it starts to resurface things in your own life, too. So even hearing these stories start welling up your own. You know, sometimes looking in the rearview mirror isn't the best way to move forward, but it is good to talk about things.
[00:07:51] Speaker A: I think it's important to look back, but to not live there. You know, I heard the analogy years ago, and I'm sure every person in here has heard this analogy. But when you're driving, you got the windshield, but you got the little rearview mirror. It's important to look in the rearview mirror to see where you've come from, see what's coming up, because stuff sneaks up on you also.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:08:09] Speaker A: But you can't drive moving forward, looking in the rearview mirror. And you have to. You have to press forward. You know, Jesus never said following him would be easy.
[00:08:18] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:08:19] Speaker A: He just said it would be worth it. And I think too many times, what we have is our faith gets tested. We find this. This rub, this trial that we find. And, you know, a faith I believe, that is tested is a faith that can be trusted. And if you never go through anything, you're not able to help people that have gone through stuff. And it's easier to say, man, I know what you're feeling if you've been through it. You know, there's. There's. There's a lot of people. I've never done drugs in my life, so talking to somebody that's a drug addict, I can't be like, I know what that, man. I know that high. I wish I had that feeling. I don't know what that's like, you know, now walking away from a buffet, I could do that because I know, you know what? I can help that person put down the stuff. Call out all the fat people, put down the spoon.
That was a horrible illustration there. But, you know, I think what we find is. That's why it's so powerful. And what I loved about the last episode with Tommy is just sharing our story. There's power in that because there's different kinds of betrayal that we're all going to go through. There's friendships, there's relationships, there's work environments, there's church hurt. We're pastors, you know, and there's pastoral betrayal on the attender side. But then there's also as pastors, and we. We get hit with some stuff a lot of times that we don't even. We learn A lot about ourselves from other people, you know. And so I think, you know, what are some other different kinds of betrayal that you could think of? Other than those.
[00:09:44] Speaker B: The ones that you've named are typically the ones because they're the close relationships that you have. You know, I was thinking about, like, when I was deployed in Iraq, and it wasn't a betrayal story, but there is a traumatic event that takes place because this is a close relationship. And back to scripture. God says that in this world you'll have trouble. And we know this. We're not denying that, but we just never anticipate the places that this stuff comes from. And when it's your close friend or when it's that person you've invested in for years, or when it's man, it is very difficult and ultimately can become traumatic. What I learned is that when I coming back from Iraq, what I learned is that you tend to bottle things up in your head, and I'm not going to talk about it. And when you go to counseling, the way to start getting over it is to talk about it. So the big thing to do is to talk about it. Now, I wasn't trying to live in my past and those kinds of things, but there is a traumatic effect that takes place when you're betrayed.
I'm not trying to make it way too big, but the reality of it is, let's just call it what it is. It's a traumatic event in somebody's life. Your brain processes things in a certain way. You have to start rearranging things that's going on in your thought processes. And then as you move forward, but you tend to push people away because you don't know who you can trust. And then you isolate yourself. And then we all know you say this a lot of times on the podcast that the devil comes to kill, steal, and destroy. And you say it up in the pulpit that Jesus come to give us life and life abundant. But we don't realize that this lion that comes to get us isolates us, and that's the worst thing we can do. But that's what we want to naturally do when we're hurt and when we're betrayed. But the closest types of relationships are the ones that hurt the most. And again, betrayal is going to come from those places. So I.
The impact that it makes, though, in our life is extremely difficult. And some people just don't bounce back. And I don't know what the Barna. I think that there was a high statistic on pastors that don't make it in ministry. And I think Barna came out and said, well, it's not as bad as we thought, but there's a lot of people that don't make it. There's a lot of hopes and dreams of a lot of people that come out of seminary that are ready to take and take the world for Jesus. All these anticipations and expectations. And, man, there's a lot of things that you'll learn in the first year of ministry when it comes to leadership, when it comes to what this is really about, you know, and whether it's finances or a building or a property or this is we're going to keep these ways or whatever the case is. I didn't grow up in the ifb. And after hearing so many of these stories and stuff, I praise God for that. I don't have some of that baggage. I just don't. I mean. But I mean, we did learn Word of Life, which I probably was way too secular and liberal. Yeah, absolutely terrible.
You know, learning. I just didn't have bring all that baggage to the table. And I'm just so thankful for that. But I have some compassion for people that had to grow in those kinds of environments and had to cover or recover from some abuse. The stuff that comes through all that, it's really not a good thing. And here we are as a church trying to express hope and trying to give peace. And I believe God wants us to heal from the wounds of our past, so we don't take him into our future. But, man, I'm telling you, there's not only different types of betrayal, but the impact of it carries into our Christian walk in life because it's relational. We start pulling away from relationships, and that's the main vehicle for ministry.
[00:12:59] Speaker A: And I think you'll hear this multiple times on this episode especially. And you've heard this before, but I think especially you can kind of agree with me. Growing up in the ifb, you didn't really. But just as men, the thought of going to counseling, the thought of talking to somebody about our hurt or our pain, it was frowned upon. You just gotta grin and bear it. You gotta pull yourself up by the bootstraps and press on. That's why a lot of guys, when you know, one thing comes, it derails them. And they also hit burnout. Listen, when you hit burnout, you stop doing what's right and you start doing what's easy. That's when the affair happens. That's when you get busted or things hit the fan, and I'll Tell you for me, I don't know if I've ever shared this on here. I know our family has walked through this with us because we were recording during this time, but about four, maybe five years ago, it may have been just before the podcast started, but my daughter had her finger chopped off. I was telling you about this last night. My son was playing with an axe in the backyard and just chopping the ground and my daughter put her hand down and I don't know how, it wasn't her hand or her arm, it was just her ring finger on her left hand got cut off. And that experience broke me. And I mean, bro, I found myself sitting on a counselor, Aaron Shaner here in Ringgold, Great dude sit on his couch and just unloaded. And I'm telling you, there was things coming out of me that I didn't even know was in me. And I find myself now, even as a pastor, going back and just talking and understanding the power of being able to communicate that. But the emotional toll that that one experience took on me was almost the same feeling as what betrayal, what the slander, what the lies did. It had the same feel. You feel out of control because there's things being said about you that you can't control. There are narratives at play with agendas that you're like, what is happening here? You know? And I think one of the things that I'm learning through this and talking to my buddy Aaron and this episode and being able to share a story is just how to deal with the lies. Because a lot of with betrayal, with slander, with this whole thing and finding the redemption is you have to deal with the lies because there aren't a lot of truths that are being told. There are things being said about you, scenarios that you're being put into to push an agenda, a narrative which suck.
And you've got to learn strategies for coping with those false accusations and rumors.
I'm learning this and just being very vulnerable here. As a pastor, I'm two years in on this church plant thing. I've never been a lead pastor. I've been a college, a student pastor, a campus pastor. Which campus pastoring at a multi site church. You're middle management. I was a facilitator, let's be honest. So if there was a problem, I just set it up. The chain, the org chart, I was low on that. But the last two years of doing this, man, you know when people leave and they say things about you that hurts and you're like, bro, that's not true. You want to go into this defense mode and you want to fix it and all this. And I'm learning those things are going to happen. And I look back at the last 25 years of my life and realize that the slander, the betrayal, the negativity, the lies, the things were preparing me for where I'm at now. And I feel that same pain. But how I cope with that, you've got to find the opportunities to have conversation, to have people in your life to hold you accountable, but to not react, to press forward, you know? And so I think that's something that I'm learning there is that when I reflect on the betrayal, what it's taught me is how to keep my eyes focused on Jesus, to realize that these things are going to come and if I'm off in my spirit, it's going to derail me, bro, and it's going to hit. And I'll be honest, sometimes this just recently, some of the stuff that's hit, it's had the opportunity to derail me and get me off. And I'm like, I don't want to preach, I don't want to go to church. I'm going to stay in bed. You know what I mean? And that's just being real.
[00:17:05] Speaker B: I think if we are also to get honest, there's a lot of things, not just from ministry, but even from our childhood that has been. That has been hurtful or harmful or traumatic or whatever word you want to give it. Like, for example, I'll give you an example for this. That brought into ministry. And these things start layering up. And I do believe that the enemy recognizes the things that are happening to us and around us relationally and emotionally. And he tends to. I like to say he creates bruises on our body.
Things that, like, if I was to tap you on the shoulder and say, hey, jc, what's up? And you fall to the ground in pain. And it's not a normal response, right?
I've hit people on the shoulder, older, many times, and no one. Why are you responding that way? Or someone says something to you and there's a super dramatic response, right? It's maybe from your childhood. So, like, for me, my parents were divorced when I was in, I think, fourth grade, and my dad got remarried to one of our Sunday school teachers at church, and she had a daughter, and my dad always wanted a daughter. And so he. He pretty much. They adopted her. And I remember going over for Christmas and this is. And this is gonna sound terrible, right? But doing the. Every other weekend Kind of visit, going over for Christmas. And we're looking forward to Christmas over at Dad's house. And he. He got us, like, a little Amway card of, like, a $15 gift. And under the tree were, I'll say, hundreds. That's what it felt like as a kid. All for Sarah, my sister. She wasn't really my sister. Yeah, I was like. I got angry. I did. I got jealous. I was jealous. I was angry. I was frustrated. And then we just stopped going to Dad's house, and dad stopped calling us and didn't come do my games. So there was a sense of abandonment. I guess the best way to put. I'm not trying to play victim. This is just how your heart and your mind collect things. And then as I'm walking forward in this, I get into youth ministry. And I remember kids would leave. They would go to another youth ministry. It destroyed me. And I remember I was talking to another youth pastor, and he's like, bro, people leave all the time. And I'm like, it doesn't bother you. So I sat with my pastor there at the time, and his name was John. And, man, he really did an amazing job. He listened to my story, and he says he kind of walked me through. Do you see the correlation of you feeling abandoned from your dad to a kid abandoning you, too? It's not the kid. You haven't dealt with the abandonment of your childhood, right? I know. It's like, listen, Jesus saved me. He renewed me. I actually sat down with my dad and I did all the I forgive yous and stuff, but I really hadn't dealt with it yet.
[00:19:30] Speaker A: So here's God.
[00:19:30] Speaker B: And I'm not saying he created these scenarios, but he allows these short pokes right in those bruises in my life, and the extreme reaction comes out, and I'm ready to quit. I mean, seriously, every time a kid left, I'm like, I'm going to quit. I don't want to do this anymore. It doesn't. It doesn't make sense, right? Looking back at it, like, we had to just be an immature baby. But, like, in the reality of it, I had not healed from some very deep wounds that happened from my childhood. And so you bring those into ministry, too. Let's say you're betrayed by a family member or stuff, man, it's going to hurt a lot more, Some people might say. I mean, we can get betrayed, right? Jesus was betrayed. And he's like, oh, you're super spiritual, whatever. But it hurts. It hurts. Especially if it brings up some of your Past wounds, too. So not only am I dealing with present stuff, if I haven't dealt with stuff from my past, and. And listen, we can ignore it, and I believe God wants to have us to heal from it, but, man, how good is it to be able to talk about it and to be able to work through it? So I had.
I went to this. This deliverance ministry thing, and I have to say, I was totally against deliverance ministry, but they had this one night, and it was about. It was called Father's Love. Okay. And so it was really. They were just talking about wounds caused by family members and stuff, and it was very, very good. And at the end, they had a stand in dad and a stand in mom, and this was super awkward. You have to understand, in my heart, I'm like, this is the weirdest thing. Why am I doing it?
[00:20:53] Speaker A: Sounds weird.
[00:20:53] Speaker B: So what they do is, like, I just walk up to them and say what you wish you could say to your dad. I lost my dad, like, three years ago. And so I was like, I don't want to do this. In my heart, though, my heart was burning. I was on the verge of tears already. And I'm like, fine. I just knew God wanted me to do it. So I let the spirit lead. I went up to it and I said, listen, I don't want to say anything because it's just weird to talk to somebody else, like, they're my dad. But I said, I just want to hug. And I just wept. I wept. And I'm telling you, I walked away from that. And I feel like that I left it there. I left all that there. And so I. I'm not saying I don't struggle at all when people walk away. Yeah, it just doesn't hurt as bad as it used to. So, like, when I. We were talking about. As we were talking about betrayal, there are things that happen in our childhood where we feel betrayed, whether it's by a family member, a teacher, a coach, or whatever the case is. Man, we carry that stuff into our adulthood, too. And in our ministries as well, or into a church, like, you know, we expect a pastor. And when he's. When he. It seems as though he betrayed us or he didn't stand up for us, and we're like, I'm done. I'm done with you. And so I really do. God not only saves us from our sin, but he wants us to heal from our past, too. And so, man, can we just give it to Him? And what's the process of doing that, too? I just Wanted to bring that up because there's just a lot. There's a lot. There's layers to this.
[00:22:04] Speaker A: Yeah. I think. I think a lot of our listeners, I want to talk to the pastors, the ministry leaders that do listen to the rfp. I mean, the weight of pastoral betrayal. Like, we live in that world. And, you know, we've recently had four, five, six families leave the church. And I think there's a unique pain of leading. And the pain that you feel with that is because you have invested in people who just disappear and you're like, wait, is it something I said? Is it theological? Is it my haircut? Is it because we're, you know, and you go down this trail where you start trying to figure out the why and you find yourself in that unhealthy place again. Like, if I change this, would they still be here? You know, And I think what that does is a lot of pastors live in that world because there's an emotional, spiritual toll that it takes on us as leaders where we're trying to fix things, when really what we need to do is deal with that. And I've said this a lot, Jacob, on here is that. But the freedom that comes when you learn to live from acceptance rather than for acceptance. It's easy to say. And I've gotten to that place where I've learned to live from acceptance. I really don't care what people think in some regards. But as a pastor, when people that you're investing in, that you love, that you've done life with, when they just leave, you're like, wait a second, am I living for their acceptance? Do I need to change to keep them here? Talk about that tension between leading. They leave in just this rub of learning to live from acceptance of who God says you are, but also falling into that hurt that you feel when that happens.
[00:23:48] Speaker B: So I'll say this from a space that I'm trying to be at myself.
I can't help but to watch Jesus, who healed and loved and taught and walked alongside a lot of them. And I'm telling you, a lot of them walked away.
[00:24:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:24:04] Speaker B: And I want to sit there and say, he wasn't hurt by.
Doesn't tell us. Right. But. But, you know, it seems like especially says, eat my flesh and drink my blood story. You know, it says almost everyone, even his own disciples, the 12 or whatever. He's like, are you going to go, too?
I think that if we truly, genuinely love somebody, I mean, again, I'm trying to get to this place that we have to be willing for them to move on if that's what they need to do. It hurts because I've invested so much time. But what happens in this whole thought process, if I'm real with myself, is it's really about me.
Maybe it's genuine because I really love being with this person or this family or these families. I had so much fun with them, and now they're gone.
But I feel like sometimes, and you had mentioned this, too, sometimes people need to move to different spaces so they can get challenged in places that they're not being challenged in my space. And I have to be okay that God loves them far more than I do, and he's not giving up on them. But I'm still sad because I genuinely love them. And what hurts so much is that it's not about making the list of all the things you've done for them, even though we have them. Right. Or all the things they've done, you know, for the church or whatever the case is.
It is a genuine love for the person.
[00:25:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: And what's even more sad is that since they're in a different building, it seems as though I can't be in a relationship with them anymore. And we have to figure out how can we maintain a relationship even if they're not in our space, because they're still part of the body of Christ. They're still our brothers and our sisters in Christ. But, man, it's hard. It takes some time. It really does take some time to work through that stuff, to work through the hurts and the pains of those things.
[00:25:55] Speaker A: And this may be an area where I felt in. But I'll be honest with you, like, one of my areas is the hurt, the pain, the assumptions in place of the assumptions fill the gaps where conversations didn't happen. And what I find is, like, social media, for example. Evidently, there's an unpardonable sin if a pastor unfollows somebody or unfriends somebody on Facebook. Bro. I did not realize that. That's, like, the worst thing that you can do to somebody. But for me, I just don't want to see. I don't want to see where they're going, where they're thriving, you know, their conversations that they're having and their post and always being like. Because here's what I've always said as a student pastor, I want to focus on who's here, not on who's not here. I know, but those nine or 10 people that have left and kind of flipped you off on their Way out. You're like, oh, that's all I'm thinking about every post is that about me. You know what I mean? And so there's like this weird tension that is. I'm trying to manage in that in real time. Like, we're living this out right now.
[00:27:00] Speaker B: But think about this too. Like, they're coming to you.
[00:27:02] Speaker A: This is a council session. Jacob.
[00:27:04] Speaker B: They're coming to your place also with baggage too. And maybe you unfriending them. And this sounds. It really does sound so immature. It really does. Like, this is my kids stuff, right?
[00:27:14] Speaker A: It is.
[00:27:14] Speaker B: They blocked me. Like, what does that mean?
[00:27:17] Speaker A: The RFP fam know all about blocking. So trust me, this is not something new to us.
[00:27:22] Speaker B: But because of the culture, it seems to be an abandonment that he only loved me or she only loved me because I was abc, whether I was there.
You know what I mean? So, like, my heart has to be. Even if they're not here with us, even if they're not here, I'm going to choose to still love them and pray for them. Now we only have so much bandwidth for relationships. We just do. We can only disciple so many people. But, like, what. What if we got to a place in our own health that we can. We can be excited for people walking off to different spaces. I mean, we.
I love relationships. I love people. I really do. And the worst part, I still don't like when people leave because I genuinely love them. But, man, you and I, we both seen people that have walked away from our churches. They go somewhere else, whether it's a church or, you know, they just have a. And this. They take off in their faith. Like, I want to be able to celebrate that for them, but there's. So there's still a part of that that I'm hurt. Like, it's hurtful, right? And what if this whole love is not selfish thing? It's like, do I really love them or do I love them with me? Like, I have to figure out. God help me to.
[00:28:33] Speaker A: That's a hard tension to make.
[00:28:34] Speaker B: I know, I know.
[00:28:35] Speaker A: Address this. The idea that leaving a church is just a personal choice while they ignore the relational impact that that's going to have on. On leaving.
[00:28:46] Speaker B: Yeah, Leaving to church is personal. It's a family.
[00:28:55] Speaker A: Because pastoral relationships, like what we have with our congregants, what congregants have with their pastor, they aren't transactional, but there's something deeply spiritual and personal. Like we're the under shepherd, we're leading that when they just leave, there's that feeling of like, oh, that hurt.
[00:29:14] Speaker B: So the hard part is I don't. I'm not a big believer in, like, leaving churches. Like, pick a family. And you know what, when you're getting a fight with your cousin, you know, you're going to see him at the next family reunion, so you're going to have to make a phone call, like, hey, Eddie, you know, let's talk. And you get it and you work through it.
[00:29:31] Speaker A: Right.
[00:29:32] Speaker B: I mean, there's personality conflicts just like anything else. And in churches, pastors aren't exempt from having their own flaws. And certain.
[00:29:39] Speaker A: We're also misconception that pastors should just get over it.
[00:29:42] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
[00:29:44] Speaker A: Like, we don't.
[00:29:44] Speaker B: I know. So it's always personal because it's family.
Even people can say, I'm leaving, and it's not personal. It is personal to everyone. You're leaving.
[00:29:55] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:29:56] Speaker B: So you're not going to remove yourself from that personal side of things. At the same time, I'm trying to be at an emotional space where I'm okay with people walking away, and I have to walk the whole rest of the church through why they left and not. What we do is we get in survival mode and we're like, oh, if they leave and we'll say it's somebody in leadership. You know, it's like, if they're leaving, then are the questions going to come up? What's going on? What's the problem? And we get in the. Yes. What if we just bless them instead of going up to defensive mode? Again, this is a whole different mentality because we've been this before, we've seen this before, and we know how the enemy can use these things to start creating division, and we don't want that. But, man, how cool would it be? We've done this before. People were leaving and we're like, hey, can we bring you up in front of the church and just bless you? And they're like, no, no, we can't do that. Like, well, come on. Like, we genuinely. It's okay that you're walking away. In my heart, I'm sad and the church is going to be sad, but can we just bless you? Because again, you're still part. You're still brother and sister. You're still a family of this church. You can come back anytime you want to visit. Because it seems as though when people walk away from your church, they don't ever come back. And that's sad to me. It's just sad to me.
[00:31:03] Speaker A: And, you know, especially in this World that where the P podcast lives with the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church.
When you leave, a lot of people are leaving. I had a conversation this week with a guy that left the ifb.
The sad thing is you become the topic of sermons, you become the topic of illustrations. I mean, how many people that are listening right now, I know for a fact that they've been told that the devil's really working in their life because they're not part of the IFB church anymore.
And then they hear the illustrations that they left the church. They went out from among us because they weren't part of us. And then a dump truck comes and hits them in the side of the car.
[00:31:46] Speaker B: And they're hoping that something bad happens to them so they can use that.
[00:31:51] Speaker A: I think there's a real hurt in that because that is factual. That actually happens. It's happened to me. It's happened to many that are listening.
So knowing that that's going to happen, how do we get to the place where we're okay with that? Because we can't help that. You know, when you leave a church, as a pastor, the pastor, you can definitely help not using those folks as an illustration, but, like, talk about that tension there.
[00:32:20] Speaker B: Listen, I'm going to. I just kind of. I have to say this.
[00:32:23] Speaker A: No, no.
[00:32:23] Speaker B: This is on my heart right now. If you're in a church like that, that is.
That is manipulation. That is not the heart of Jesus. Jesus never does that.
He just never does that.
I think that sometimes we just need to just rest in those gospels for some time and see how did Jesus lead? How did Jesus love? How did he deal with conflict? How did he deal with people that were against him? He never did that.
If I was in a church where a pastor was doing that about another family, I would know he's for me just because I'm here. He's not actually for me. And I'm walking away. I am. I'm gonna be the most loving thing. I'm not gonna try to break things up. I'm not gonna try to trash the church or the pastor. I'm just gonna walk away from that place because they're not for me or my family. They are for this church and maybe for themselves. I don't know. I don't know the heart. But if you are loving like Jesus loves, you should bless people. You should. I'm not saying warn those who are not. I'm not saying you shouldn't warn those who are unruly. But leaving a church doesn't mean you're unruly God sometimes moves us on. There are times when people leave a church because, man, the spirits open their eyes and they realize what kind of, you know, system this is or leadership. Or maybe they don't realize. Maybe they're going to be against, like, I think King James isn't the only version. Like, there's, you know, it seems like.
[00:33:41] Speaker A: There'S some part of sin right there.
[00:33:42] Speaker B: Like, I'm going to learn Hebrew and Greek and read from that.
[00:33:44] Speaker A: But you're not. Don't do it.
[00:33:45] Speaker B: Don't do it. But, man, if I just. I say this and I don't know all your audience, and I didn't grow up in that, but if I was in a church like that, I would just happily just bless them and I would walk away. That is not a church that's really representing Jesus, in my opinion. They're just not loving. They don't love the people.
[00:34:04] Speaker A: Well, I can assure you there are many in this audience that are listening in that very scenario right now.
[00:34:10] Speaker B: But the fear is if I leave, then I'm gonna get trashed. Yeah, man. Isn't that. I want you to imagine an abusive relationship, right? That's what this is. It's an abusive relationship. I gotta do this or my husband's gonna be upset or my wife's gonna be mad and there's gonna be a beating coming. Is that loving relationship.
[00:34:27] Speaker A: But even in a physical abuse relationship, how many times do the partners stay with them because.
[00:34:32] Speaker B: Or they go on to another abusive relationship?
[00:34:34] Speaker A: I mean, turn on cops. I love him. That's my baby daddy, you know, it's.
[00:34:38] Speaker B: Because that's all they know. It's comfortable. It's comfortable.
[00:34:41] Speaker A: Last week there was a revival service happening here. A camp meeting, a jubilee is what they called it.
[00:34:47] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:34:47] Speaker A: And there's a guy who's on our intro of our podcast was talking about people with special needs and using. And he used the word for special needs to strike fear in people's heart, I guess, or whatever, but used this analogy that was so bad and so off and just wasn't even anything biblical. And there were people in that crowd that I know that is killing them because they have special needs kids. That's abuse straight to their face. And he was using their kids special needs as an illustration. That's just one example of so many. But we sit there because we are part of the cult, or part of the. Yeah, I call it a cult. We've drunk the Kool Aid and we can't leave because here's what I think happens a lot of times is there's a temptation to build walls around ourselves, to avoid deep relationships or to avoid moving on, to prevent future hurt, to stop the onslaught of what will come. And so we just build walls around ourselves. Then we live in a silo. And we don't. We don't have any outside resources that will help us. And any kind of help that comes, it just bounces off the wall because we put up this defense. It's always going to be this way. I'm never going to get better. This is always going to happen at the next church. I'm just waiting for it to come. And we almost get calloused in that regard.
[00:36:12] Speaker B: Jesus says it's for freedom that Christ set us free.
And I think some of us are afraid of freedom. We just are. As a matter of fact, I was teaching a class for people that are pretty new to our church, and I had a few people that came out of the German Baptist faith, and it's more Anabaptist. They wore head coverings and the men dress a certain way. And I don't know all the rules. They don't necessarily come from the scripture, their minute book. They come up with a lot of stuff in their yearly meeting.
But one of the guys, man, just. There's a part he really struggles with just living in freedom.
He almost preferred to go back to the legalistic way of life because for him, it's easier.
I can't do that. I'm just not wired like that. Some people really genuinely like to be told what to do and all this other stuff. But, man, taste. If you got a taste of what liberty and freedom and Christ can look like, like, it's a beautiful thing. But unfortunately, you're dealing with the fear of freedom and the fear of all that stuff and what could it bring it to, and then also public reprimand if you walk away. A lot of people are stuck. And I hate that for them. I really do. I hate that for those people. But I bless them and I believe God's doing a great work in their life and even in their church.
Regardless of whatever man's heart is going to do, God is getting his work done. He's gonna still work in our lives. He's gonna show up in powerful ways. And so, like, I'm not thinking God's up there. Like, I can't do anything if you're.
[00:37:36] Speaker A: Gonna stay at these churches.
[00:37:38] Speaker B: I think God's going to do his work. But, man, it would be beautiful if we can just get free.
[00:37:43] Speaker A: Jacob. I Want you to speak to the pastor that's listening to this and help him understand the balance between guarding your heart and continuing to love people.
[00:37:53] Speaker B: Well, wow.
I'll just tell a story first.
I moved to the church I went to when I was a kid. It's the only earliest church I can remember going to.
I do not remember the pastor that left or got let go. It was a. He got like. He was more of a narcissistic style pastor leader.
Incredible. He was incredible in the sense of just in his evangelistic. I mean, they grew the church like crazy. It just was super messy on the inside and a lot of relational strife and a lot of problems. We welcomed the next pastor in and for, you know, and for 30 years he was a pastor at the church. And I got to be on staff in my later years and there's been some church splits. There'd been a lot of conversations. There's been a lot of problems that have happened there. And ultimately my father in law is a loyal person. He is extremely loyal and always had defended the pastor anyway in saying all that, I got on staff and it didn't take long to start realizing what was happening in private behind doors, people were leaving. And again, he also would use the pulpit in that way and wouldn't name names, but everybody knew who he was talking about.
Whenever there's conflict in church, instead of preaching the text like let's say it's Matthew 6, he would end up jumping somewhere else and talking about the problems that are there. You know, they don't like this music, whatever it was.
And then it. Then I ended up sitting down with this guy and confronting him and saying, listen. And I just confronted him on a few things and how I saw he was treating people. And I had also confided in him some, I don't know, a year earlier, just sharing some of my own past stuff, just trying to help work through some things that I was dealing with personally. And in the middle of me confronting him, he says, you know, I haven't told anybody about that stuff you told me. And I'm like, I told my wife that later on. She's like, that was a threat I didn't see as a threat. I was a little naive, like, oh my gosh, it wasn't because I just never thought he would do that. Right. Why would he do that to me?
Anyway, time led on and of course this just led to him leaving the church and then started a rumor about us. And I remember all the mess that had to be cleaned up over saying A few statements that kind of led people to believe things. I was mad for a long time.
[00:40:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:20] Speaker B: I. I had to. I knew. I knew in my heart I had to start letting those things go. And this is what I have to. I would say to every pastor, there is nothing that we should hold onto. There really isn't.
When we choose to hold onto it, it really only becomes a territory in our own life where the devil is going to continue to kick our butts. And it's going to affect my relationship with my wife, my kids. And I could all day long say it won't. Yeah, it is not worth it. I came back, I had this. I exploded on my son. I couldn't tell if this was because of what happened with the pastor and. Or what happened in Iraq, but my son drops a glass of milk. It was just the glass made a big old noise and milk everywhere. And I just. I turned around because I didn't see it happen. So it was part of the loud noise, the sudden noise that got me. But, man, I blew up on him. And he covers himself up, covers his face up like I was going to swing at him. And he. Seven, eight years old, and I had never. I barely spanked the kid, so I didn't realize how I was coming across. And I'm like. I realized that night I don't want my issues to affect my kids and me and my relationship with my kids or my wife. And it was also affecting her. And I didn't want them to affect my future relationships. And I didn't want to put guardrails up because I know I'm not going to enjoy the beauty of relationships that God's given me. And I have to work through letting this God I know I want. I feel so justified in being angry. I just. I can't. If I continue in it, it's not just affecting me. It's affecting everyone else around me. And I had to say, my son and my other kid, my other children, they mean way much more than me trying to hold onto this anger and guilt. So the. And this is such a simple thing, but you. We have to let it go.
It is going to be a daily thing for a long time. And I'm going to start praying eventually for God to bless this guy. Because what he did is when he left the church, he started church down the road. He actually tried to get the property across the street. Of course, that's what happens.
[00:42:24] Speaker A: Right?
[00:42:24] Speaker B: But I started praying that God would bless his church. Now, here's the deal. I had to wrestle with this for a long time. Because I'm like, this is an abusive person. And you know why I got mad? I had a meeting with somebody who left the church. He was actually in leadership number two, in command, if you will. He was the vice moderator. So he left instead of dealing with the problem and left people getting abused. And I don't. I just don't like that. I'm a protector kind of person. I go to his office at his business and I say, why did you leave the church and you didn't deal with the problem? Because you know how many more people have been hurt because you just walked away? I was mad. I was mad. I was mad at him. I was mad at. Anyway, we have to learn how to forgive and let it go. Because that forgiveness is. That unforgiveness is never. Is never going to work good for us in our relationships. And God wants us to be free. He just wants us to be free from it.
[00:43:17] Speaker A: I think you hit the nail on the head. It's got to happen in that pattern. There's got to be forgiveness and then moving on. Because who is it that said unforgiveness? You know, when it takes root in you and those assumptions, the silence, when people don't speak up, when they know that there's truth. And that hurts just as much almost as being betrayed. When people know truth and they don't say anything, I think the unforgiveness, it tends to take root in your life and you think of how you can not kind of hope something bad happens to those people, but you're looking at their life and you're like, when's God going to handle that? You know, it's almost. I heard it said once, it's almost like eating rat poison, hoping that the rat died. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, that's not going to hurt them at all. It's just killing you.
[00:44:04] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:44:04] Speaker A: And it just tears you down. And I think, you know the other side of that, the pain of betrayal. But the power of redemption that we have to look at is we are following the way of Jesus. And we know, especially here, getting ready to go into Holy Week, that Jesus own experience, he experienced betrayal. I mean, Judas betrayed him. Peter betrayed him. You want to talk about abandonment, denial? Like, the guys that were supposed to be praying with Jesus, they fell asleep while Judas was coming to arrest him. So I think what we find, Jesus also experienced this in many regards. And what did he tell us to do? You shake off the dust from under Your feet and you keep moving forward. And I think about that so many times. Like, there's so many times where I just need to shake it off the dust. You just said it. We got to let it go. I keep thinking of frozen. Let it go. And also Taylor Swift. Shake it off. Shake it off. I can't believe I said that. Both on the podcast, but that's almost what it's like. Because there are scripture that gives us encouragement when things like this happen, that remind us we're not the first to be betrayed. We're not the first to face slander. We're not the first with abandonment. I was reading Psalms 55, verse 12. It says, it is not an enemy who taunts me. I could bear that. It is not my foe who is so arrogantly insulting me I could have hidden from them. Instead, it is you, my equal, my companion, a close friend. What good fellowship we once enjoyed as we walked together to the house of God. Let death stalk my enemies. Let the grave swallow them alive, for evil makes its home with them. He goes on and says, but I will call on God. The Lord will rescue me. Morning, noon, and night. I cry out in my distress, and the Lord hears my voice. He ransoms me, keeps me safe from the battle waging against me. Though many still oppose me, God has ruled forever. He will hear me and humble them. You know, there's been so many times where this conversation, and this is why I wanted to have this conversation, where it's not necessarily the enemy that is spreading the slander and the lies and the gossip. A lot of times, sometimes it's those that are the closest to us that do remain silent, that do say the things. And you wonder, has anybody ever experienced this, David, did they experience this? Jesus did with Judas, with Peter. But I love this because he says, I will call on God and the Lord will rescue me. Morning, noon, night, I will cry out in my distress. How many times has there been where I don't have words to say? I'm just calling out God. Here's the pain. Like, I'm hurting. I'm struggling. David did this morning, noon, and night. And I love. The response, is that the Lord hears my voice. We never go unheard. And I think that's the power of redemption, is to know, yes, we're going through this pain, we're going through this hurt, but the Lord hears us. It's also not taking him by surprise. And we always have heard that. We don't go through stuff just to go through it. It's for our Good for his glory. And so the other side of this, the power of redemption through this is learning how to take this hurt, to not make me bitter, but to make me better and how to press on. I've been able to help people that are facing this, and this isn't like something that's in the past. I'm real tied, living this out. You know, we are living through this. But we handle betrayal, slander, abuse, abandonment, whatever you want with grace and maturity. And I think as we go through it, each time we grow in that regard, we have to choose forgiveness over bitterness. And this is so much easier to sit on a microphone and say, when you live it, you got to choose forgiveness over bitterness, even when closure isn't possible. That sucks.
[00:48:18] Speaker B: You know, I had some.
[00:48:19] Speaker A: It really does.
[00:48:19] Speaker B: It is. I had some experiences that people wouldn't. I don't know if you'd consider it betrayal. Other outsiders would, but as a pastor and I wanted to give a word out to congregation members or people that attend church or who have friends that are pastors.
Here's what we hope will happen. There are times where we're going to have people come against us. It's just going to happen.
There's just great responsibility, and there's also great opposition when you choose to lead when it comes to ministry and stuff like that. I had a situation take place where, in the midst of transition from the pastor leaving and taking on new things, the opportunity of me preaching at the pulpit came as an option because I was able to fill in a few times. And. And they were like, man, we would. I was doing youth ministry at the time.
I had three family members that came into a leadership meeting and just.
Man, just trashed me. Like, I never. These are people that I have served with in multiple capacities and ministries and camps. And I was blown. I mean, it was. It was so hurtful. And at the same time, you can't sometimes defend yourself.
[00:49:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:29] Speaker B: Or you just. It's. It's an admission of guilt.
[00:49:31] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:49:32] Speaker B: And so you're there silent, listening to people that you love, and you're like, where is this coming from? And it is probably the most. If I was to look back, it's probably one of the most hurtful times. And what hurt the most is there were a few people that are sitting around the table that knew what they were saying wasn't true, and they said, nothing that hurts.
My challenge would be. And I know that some of you out there, you hate conflict. You just don't like it. You'd rather not step into it. But for the sake of love, would you be willing to be uncomfortable and defend what you know to be true? I am not asking you to take up a sword for your pastor. If he's. If he's wrong, then call him out. Say, bro, you need to settle down or whatever it is. But if you know that what they're accusing them of isn't right, will you stand up and say, you know what? I know this for a fact, that it's not true. This is what we hope, all hope this is that one of the hardest things to follow through or to listen to or to experience is when people that you thought love you say nothing.
They'll talk to you after the meeting and say, hey, man, I can't believe they said that about you. I'm like, well, I didn't see this.
[00:50:41] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
[00:50:42] Speaker B: Like, as I said, I. I know now. And this is after me just stepping out and learning a whole lot more about people and wiring and stuff like that. There are a lot of people who just don't like conflict. And actually, the one individual around the table, he hates conflict. It would have been. It would have been a miracle and act of God for him to speak out. But, man, when I was sitting here in the moment, I'm like, why is he not saying something? He knows this isn't true. He was there.
So. It was just so, so hurtful. Would you get the courage. I'm just asking, would you have the courage. The courage if you know it's not true, to stand up? Would you have the courage that if you know something's going on, to go have a converse. Have your. Have your pastor out for coffee and.
[00:51:23] Speaker A: Say, don't just leave.
[00:51:24] Speaker B: Yeah, don't walk away. Like. Like. We also need to improve. We need to improve as leaders, as pastors, as fathers. You know, if you think that there's something. Let's just have some coffee, right? I mean, I know sometimes we're like, well, I just don't. He's so unapproachable, you know, I don't know why or how I'm unapproachable.
[00:51:43] Speaker A: Because he's been not approached and he's like, oh, here it comes again. Listen, I'm guilty of that. I mean, well, if you get called.
[00:51:49] Speaker B: For a coffee meeting, what's your first thought?
[00:51:51] Speaker A: Like, crap.
Yeah, exactly.
[00:51:54] Speaker B: What happened on Sunday? Did I say something?
[00:51:55] Speaker A: Are they leaving? Listen, that just happened two weeks ago. Hey, we need to get coffee. I'm like, no, I'm not doing it. I've been sick for two weeks.
[00:52:02] Speaker B: But doesn't that, though, affect how you walk into the meeting? You know what I'm saying? Like, I just want to let go of this so I can go to a meeting, like, excited about meeting with a friend.
[00:52:12] Speaker A: I listened to somebody last week that I can't remember who it was. It was a preacher on Moody Radio, shout out. And he talked about how when he was first starting to church plant, it might have been Joe Stoll, who's going to be on the podcast here in a few months.
He talked about when he was a young church planner, when people would leave, and he just. He got PTSD from seeing letters come in the mail. And he said there was one letter that was sitting on his desk for three months, and he couldn't open it because he knew what was in that. And he said, one day I just took it and I burned it. I didn't even read it. And then I ran into this couple a few weeks later, and they said, hey, did you get our check that we sent to the church? Oh, Lord, the check? They said, yeah, we sent a check about three months ago, and it was a large sum of money.
[00:53:00] Speaker B: Can you rescind that check?
[00:53:02] Speaker A: How do you recover from that? I don't think that was Joseph. I can't remember who that was. But I think I understand that, though. I understand I lived there. I mean, I have made up some excuses. I'm ashamed to say this. I've made up excuses to not have that meeting because I knew what was coming in that. Because we live with that pain of, like, oh, I can't bear to hear that again today.
But I think on the other side of this, the power of redemption that comes from that betrayal is real. I think we've established that. But we've got to get to a place where we learn to find healing and help in that. And I don't want you to take these two episodes and think, oh, nope, if I just do these steps, I'm going to be good. We're going to deal with that. I think it's always something that's going to be there as a reminder. But you choose to forgive over bitterness, even if closure never comes. And that's a real possibility. I hold onto that because I love closure. On my enneagram 8, whatever you've been trying to tell me all weekend, I am. But I love closure. I want to know the why behind the why. But that may not happen. And just this weekend, I've come to the realization that forgiveness has to be over bitterness, because I May never get the closure that I'm needing in that. I think the other thing is learning to release people to God. You said this a minute ago. Rather than holding on to resentment, God loves them more than I do. He knows their life. He knows their story, Even the ones that have spoken the slander, the abandonment.
If he is their father, he loves them more than we do. And I think what we have to do at times is we've got to let it go, and we've just got to lead with open hands.
I'm reminded often the longer I pastor, it's not my church, it's his church. It's his church, and he's doing a good job with it. I'm the under shepherd to steward who he's allowed me to pastor. And I think a lot of times we're guilty of saying, it's my church, my people, my congregation, my pulpit, it's his. We just got to steward that well. And so I think, you know, we have to learn to lead through the pain. And I speak from a pastoral side of this. But the importance of having trusted mentors and friends and counselors to process this hurt cannot be overstated. I think we have spoken very highly today why that's important to have mentors in your life. I got a good buddy, Josh Cardwell. He's been on the podcast before. He's up in Crossville, Tennessee, Rev Church. Josh is a guy that I call all the time. And he said something very similar. He's like, man, he's like, you can't fix it. You got to let it go. I'm like, dang it, I want to be a fixer. I want to get this fixed. But I needed that encouraging word in my life. Talk about the importance for a minute of why it's important to have good mentors. Accountability. Not just accountability, but mentors, people that will speak into your life. Friends, counselors, talk about the importance of that.
[00:56:05] Speaker B: Yeah, God did not create us to live in isolation. And I really, I'm 100% am a believer. I'd fight for this all day long. That if you're living in isolation, you're in a very unhealthy place. And I'm not even talking about clinically like you're depressed. I'm talking about spiritually. That is not a place that you are intended or designed to be. God has created us relational. So I think having relationships in healthy seasons and hurtful or restorative seasons, I think is most important. I think having people. We tend to surround ourselves with people who speak the same complaints and upsetness, that kind of stuff. And we don't find healing in those areas. We realize that we're not alone, and that's helpful. But who's going to help us take a step out of this mess? I don't want to wallow in the mud. And if I cannot figure it out, I'm going to go find somebody who's been through it, who's been down this road and has found their way out of this dark tunnel. Because there is a way out. And listen, everyone's process will be a little different. But God has intended for us to. Again, we'll pray about it. But I believe God will move us to our relationship. I think about the Elijah story. Here he is wanting to die, and God didn't make fun of him. He didn't say, you loser, how could you say you wanted to? He fed him, he let him rest. But then he got him up and he moved them on and he gave him Elisha. And again, I do believe that this is about relationships. And so maybe you don't feel safe around relationships. Listen, if we've been abandoned and betrayed, it's hard. It just is. Because you're asking me to be vulnerable when I've just got hurt. When I opened up my chest and now someone poked my heart or pit, you know? Well, yes. So if you feel safer with someone in another town, another state, someone from your past, maybe you gotta find somebody. You really need that. Somebody who's gonna love you and pray for you and someone who's gonna say the hard stuff to you.
[00:57:48] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:57:49] Speaker B: And you know for a fact, no matter what they say, they love you. They love you. They're not going to abandon you. Man, we all need that so much. We really, really do. You want to. If we just hang out, people that are like us and they're all in the mud, it's fun and we can joke about it. But if I want to get out of this place because I don't want to be here 10 years from now, you're going to. It's going to require you to move into new relationships. Maybe you go to counseling. Yeah, that's okay. I remember struggling so much because I had some like, suicidal ideation. I never had a plan to kill myself or anything. I just didn't want to live anymore. I just was done. I can't even explain it. And here I am, a pastor who's saying, Jesus is the hope of the world and he's given you life abundant. And I don't want to live. And I'm like, how am I going to talk to a counselor, especially a secular counselor who probably is not saved, Tell them I'm a pastor and then tell them I just don't want to live anymore.
I didn't want to do that because I'm like, I'm going to lead them to believe that Jesus isn't life. And I struggled so much of that, but I finally decided I have to go for the sake of my kids, my wife, my friends, my family, my church. Church. I went to get help. And I am so thankful. I'm so thankful for it. I really am. Just to be able to sit down with someone. I know that some people are like, ah, you know, I don't need that stuff.
[00:59:00] Speaker A: That's secular. Yeah.
[00:59:01] Speaker B: They ask you lots of questions and it's sometimes a little bit annoying. But, man, they have a process set up to help you work through your past so you don't take it in your future.
[00:59:09] Speaker A: Talk about this, because this is probably a big no, no for some people, but medication, you know, I think. I think especially in the church world, depression medicine, a joint every night. I'm just kidding. Depression medicine, you know, I mean, something. Some gummies, somebody's like, oh, I got freedom. JC said it on the rfp.
[00:59:28] Speaker B: But.
[00:59:28] Speaker A: But talk about that because, you know, I mean, growing up, if you were on antidepressants or something like that, that was dependent on the devil, you know, it wasn't dependent on Jesus. Speak into that.
[00:59:38] Speaker B: I. I think there are some people who really just who need to be on some kind of medication and stuff. I am not. You are not lesser than. God loves you. I'm not beyond believing God can heal. And maybe you do it for a season, but, like, if you're really, really, really struggling and it seems as though God hasn't, you know, answered your prayers and he's not taking it away. Maybe there's some chemical stuff that just needs some balance. Listen, I don't.
[01:00:04] Speaker A: Wouldn't that be the healing?
[01:00:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[01:00:06] Speaker A: That you have to do that God can use that.
[01:00:07] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[01:00:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:00:08] Speaker B: I mean, I know too, like where you're lacking faith, there's all kinds of just weird things. But, man. And I do think that there's a lot of things that we can work through that we don't have to be on it. But, man, there is no shame. I was on them for a little while. As I was working through stuff, I tested kind of weaning myself off of them, and I'm off. But, man, there is no shame. In it.
I know there's a lot of people that tend to do that. But listen, if you're wrestling with that, I just think that's a little bit of pride. If you need it, go, take. Just take it and we'll pray. Invite people to pray for you, too. And maybe God can wean. You know, you'll wean off of it after a season after you deal with some stuff. But some of you have gone through some really hard stuff.
[01:00:51] Speaker A: Sure.
[01:00:52] Speaker B: I would look at you and say, I don't know how you're not taking something just, you know, in this season to help you get through it. But I believe God can heal, and I believe God can move you through it, and maybe you'll wean off of it. But if you need it now, there's no shame in that.
[01:01:03] Speaker A: Jacob, speak into how we don't allow the pain to shape how we see or treat new people in our life.
[01:01:12] Speaker B: Wow. You have to again. You have to. I started praying. This is my prayer and this has helped me so much. God, help me see what you see when I look at people. And here's what can help you give grace when people act a certain way, dress a certain way, talk a certain way, or treat you a certain way. If you have that, help me see what you see. Sometimes I. Instead of making judgments or instead of putting up a shield or pushing them away because they look like they remind me, a lot of that personality just left and hurt me.
I'm staying away from them.
If you start to see what God sees, and maybe God gives you this, I don't know, give you an insight, or you look at them and you say, you know what, this person is injured and they probably just got hurt at the church. They just left and they're coming to your church now. How are we helping them heal from their past wounds so they don't do that here, too. We have to have that heart. And we're not going to unless we choose to look at people the way that God does. I don't believe Jesus wants us to stay in our hurts. I don't.
[01:02:08] Speaker A: I agree.
[01:02:09] Speaker B: How are we as a church discipling people out of those things? Right. Maybe we provide some finances for them to go get counseling. Or maybe because I'm not a great counselor. I mean, I've counseled lots and lots of people, but I found that counseling is just, you know, a series of fasting questions in the right way to help in self discovery. But the reality of it is there are people that are going to show up and they have their own baggage. And I'm telling you, when I started seeing that, I was so much more gracious. It's so much more gracious. And you can welcome them into a relationship and maybe you keep some boundaries at first until there's something work through and that kind of stuff. But man, you cannot fully experience love, nor can you express it or give it. When you have walls up and you push people away.
[01:02:52] Speaker A: That's it. I think something I heard a long time ago. There's always a colonel's nugget of truth in everything.
What I have learned in things that have happened in the past, I look for areas of growth, areas where I can apply. And maybe it's not all true, but there's an element of it that's true that I need to learn and grow from. And I think we learn from experiences, but we can't let it define who we are or future ministry or relationships. Because what tends to happen if we change, learning from experience is changing completely. Then we become somebody that we're not. And we're trying to our identity shot. We're not who God has called us to be. We become a chameleon, as my papa would say. We become a chameleon and we're just changing for everybody. So there's a danger in changing 180 because somebody said something negative about you. But learning from the past experience and then moving forward but not letting it define you or your ministry, I think that's pretty important.
[01:03:57] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't think God wants us to change. I think he's made us different for a reason. I think that we're better together because we're different.
[01:04:03] Speaker A: I agree.
[01:04:04] Speaker B: I don't think that churches should be trying to get everyone to conform and to be a plastic and look all the same. Dress your well.
[01:04:10] Speaker A: Hey, buddy. Welcome to the ifb.
[01:04:12] Speaker B: I know. There it is.
[01:04:13] Speaker A: You've never lived in this world. We want it to be a cookie cutter. You got to wear a suit, your tie, carry the King James Bible. I mean, listen to the singers. They all sound the same. You know what I mean? So I know you don't know that world, but a lot of the people listening, you just hit the nail on the head.
[01:04:28] Speaker B: We miss so much beauty in the body of Christ. When we try to conform and look the same, we just do. God does not. He didn't make anything that way, even down to our fingerprints. He did not make us the same. And so he's not trying to make us into something different, but he wants to make us make us into more the image of his son, whatever personality type we have. So, like, we all have our way that we approach life. And some people approach life with just, I want to help people and love people. Some people approach life, I'm going to take them, take some territory for the kingdom. Some people are, I just want to care for hurting, no matter what, however you do it. No, whatever it looks like. I mean, God wants us to become like the Son in the midst of that because Jesus was the greatest prophet and the greatest teacher and the greatest shepherd. Like, let's look at that model and how do we become that? I don't need. I'm not going to be like you and you won't be like me, but I can become better by spending time with you and you with me. So we're going to learn from each other and I'm going to get more boldness, like you have boldness, and you might get more compassion, like I might have compassion. And together, you know, there's going to be something really beautiful come from this relationship. So I think that's what Jesus wants for us in that relational concept. He doesn't want to make us the same.
[01:05:32] Speaker A: Yeah. So let's give our listeners some practical advice as we wrap this up.
I want you to speak to those that are listening, who have been betrayed or hurt, that aren't leaders, that aren't pastors, that are just listening. And they have felt this from a family member, maybe from a pastor, from an employee, an employer. Give them some practical steps that they can take other than what we've talked about today. And then I'll give some for pastors and leaders and we'll wrap this up.
[01:06:01] Speaker B: Well, first I would just say, I'm so sorry that you've been hurt. I could say I've sat across the table from a lot of people who just don't want to go back to church.
There's been a lot of terrible, just terrible things that have happened. And again, God does not and never wanted that to happen to you. I really believe that with all my heart.
But I also believe that you have a personal responsibility to.
You need to respond to whatever is going on in your heart. You really do.
Jesus kind of walks through this idea, we're walking through this idea that murder and hatred are the same thing. And it's such a weird passage, but it is the trail that bitterness and anger and rage and some of us are in that whole stream of things. And man, what would happen if we just let it go?
I would ask you what Are you afraid of.
Some of us don't know what it would be like if we didn't have this anger. Like, that's become our life, our core, our center, our Persona. And I'm afraid the same thing, like a drug addict. I don't know what I would do without it. I've been on it so long.
I would challenge you. Would you be willing to have the courage to begin the process of letting go? Jesus wants you to be free from that. He loves you and he has a wonderful and amazing plan for you as you move forward. And maybe you don't go back into a building called a church, but maybe you start something in your community for people that are like you and you start walking with them, say, hey, listen, this is how I walk through this healing process. Because I believe that God wants that for you. He does not want you to carry that hurt and that pain into your future. So you have to take. I mean, just. I hate saying, I know this is hard, and I know if you're saying this, there's the yeah, but conversation. And I don't know what happened to you. I just know that, like, holding on to that is going to erode your health. It's going to erode your spirit. And God wants you to be free. So I would just plea with you. Would you have the courage to begin the process of forgiving and letting go. It does not give the person a free pass of what they did to you. What it's going to give you is it'll allow God to take the shackles off of you because you're the one bound by this, not that. And so, man, I can you let go? Would you let go? Jesus wants to free you from this. Give it to him. Let him take care of it. He says, vengeance is mine. I will repay. He will take care of these things. Like, JC story. You hate saying I told you so and those kinds of things. But, like, there are times you're like, God did take care of it. He said he would and he did.
[01:08:42] Speaker A: Yep.
[01:08:43] Speaker B: And there are times, listen. Where you're like, I'm waiting for it to happen. It's not. Give it it to Jesus. Put it at the feet of his cross. Recognize how much he loved you and forgave you. Even though you betrayed him and walked away from Him. At times he still said, get up, come after me. I love you. I'm going to give you a second chance, a third chance, a hunter chance. And the way that he loved you, would you choose to love them? And it is a process, but give the courage to start that.
[01:09:08] Speaker A: That's good. To my pastor friends, those in ministry that are listening, I feel like the steps for finding the redemption, the side of that is that you have to choose to forgive over getting bitter. Even if closure isn't possible, you got to learn to release people to God rather than holding on to that resentment. I think you need to remember that you're not alone, that you're going to face betrayal, and that there are many in ministry who have faced betrayal in some form, and that the call to ministry includes wounds. But God brings healing and restoration. He is a God of healing and a God of restoration. And so my encouragement as I'm living through this as well with you in real time, is learn to focus on those who stay rather than being consumed by those who leave. And lean in to the fact that you're serving as God's under shepherd to these people for this time. And as they grow and they leave you, bless them and move on. Does that mean we're always going to get it right? No. You know, will we always sit there and look back at, how could I have done this differently? Was there something I could have said that they would have stayed? Those thoughts are going to consume you. You got to learn, as Jacob said a minute ago, to let it go and just move forward. I think it's a very practical opportunity to know the pain of betrayal, but also find the power of redemption in that.
[01:10:45] Speaker B: That's right.
[01:10:46] Speaker A: Thanks for being here with me today, bud. Thanks, J.C. it's been a good conversation. You know, as we wrap up today's episode, I want to leave you with a reminder that pain doesn't have the final word, betrayal. It may mark a chapter of your story, but it doesn't have to define the whole thing. Redemption is possible. Healing is possible. And even when it feels slow, even when it feels messy, even when it feels like things are being put into this gigantic blender and turned on high and the top is not on and stuff's just flying everywhere. God is still at work in the middle of it. You've heard me say this once, you've heard me say it a thousand times. God is always working. Sometimes it's behind the scenes where he's doing things you are completely unaware of, but one day you will benefit from. So trust his plan. I want to give a big thank you to Jacob for joining us today, helping us unpack what redemption really looks like on the other side of a broken story. If this conversation has stirred something in you, I want to encourage you not to rush past it, but sit with it, pray through it, talk to someone you trust. And know this, your story still matters. Thanks for listening to the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. We'll see you back here next time. Love you kids.
[01:13:08] Speaker B: It sa.
