181 - Legalism Doesn't Work

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, everybody, thanks for tuning in to the recovering fundamentalist podcast, where your host, Matt Dudley. Nathan Cravat. I'm JC Groves. This is episode number 181, and we're glad to have you here today. The title of today's episode is legalism doesn't work. It's going to be a great episode. We hope you stick around. Fellas. How are you? [00:00:22] Speaker B: I'm doing good, man. I think we might need to add a little disclaimer to the beginning of this episode, because we're going to be getting into some pretty deep stuff, and we're not there yet, so we're not going to talk about it. But definitely, probably not appropriate for young kids. If you're riding in the car, you might want to listen to this first before you let the kids listen to it. [00:00:41] Speaker A: And probably a trigger warning as well. [00:00:44] Speaker B: Yes, a lot of those. [00:00:47] Speaker A: Nathan. [00:00:49] Speaker B: Yes, sir. [00:00:50] Speaker A: You are officially the old man of the podcast. [00:00:54] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, man, I turned 49 last week. That is crazy. [00:00:59] Speaker C: Gosh. Well, the other day, got my poly. [00:01:03] Speaker A: Grip and my preparation h mixed up. My gums don't itch anymore. Just can't get my underwear off. Oh, man. [00:01:13] Speaker B: I was trying to tell pastor Earl who Earl is, I think, 81 years old. I was trying to tell him that joke the other day, and I couldn't remember it. And he goes, oh, yeah, I've heard that before. Wait, what is it? We were two old men in the car driving down the road, trying to remember that joke. And I was like, man, I'm gonna have to ask JC about it. Thank you for giving me the punchline. [00:01:36] Speaker C: Yes, sir. This older guy in our church, I saw him get up and leave Sunday, and he called me Tuesday, and he said, hey, and you'd have to know this old boy, but I've known him all my life. But he goes, hey, I bet you wonder why I got up and left church Sunday, don't you? And I said, well, I figured I said, something ticked you off. Yeah. No. He goes, I pooped my pants. [00:01:59] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:02:00] Speaker A: Oh, no. [00:02:01] Speaker C: I had to get out of there. I was dying. [00:02:05] Speaker A: I love it. It's funny. Speaking of getting old, my dad, you know, when you were kids riding in the car, you'd be like, dad, I gotta go to the bathroom. He's like, no, you don't. No, dad, I really gotta pee. He's like, no, you don't. You can hold it, boy. My dad was on a mission. We didn't stop. We'd leave Chattanooga and be driving up to Illinois to see our family or Indiana. I gotta. We're not. We're on a mission. We'll stop when we have to fill up. Well, he jumped in the truck with me the other day. We weren't in the car ten minutes. He's like, hey, why don't you pull over there at that hardy? So I need to use the bathroom. I said, you can hold it. You ain't gotta do it. Getting old, man. [00:02:40] Speaker B: I love it. [00:02:41] Speaker C: Hey, turn. [00:02:42] Speaker B: Yeah, Dudley. Speaking of. Speaking of being old, I think JC shared that, like, two episodes ago. [00:02:49] Speaker A: As I'm telling it, I'm remembering that I just shared this, but it's okay. [00:02:53] Speaker B: That's still a great story. I love it. [00:02:55] Speaker A: I will tell it again. [00:02:57] Speaker B: All of Brian Edwards stories we heard a dozen times. [00:03:00] Speaker A: That's what I was saying. We have to. I have. Somebody has to pick up the mantle of retelling all the stories again. [00:03:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:06] Speaker A: Goodness gracious. I feel like I'm your age. We've been remodeling this building. We're moving in here in a couple weeks. And, man, we were. We were on our hands and knees last night. Put. Not praying, but putting carpet tiles down. And I felt like I needed to go home and take an Epsom salt bath. I don't know what that means, but I've heard it helps. [00:03:29] Speaker B: Yeah, it helps. [00:03:31] Speaker A: It does. [00:03:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:33] Speaker A: There you go. I'll call you for all my old man remedies. Thank you. [00:03:36] Speaker B: Yes. [00:03:36] Speaker A: If you could teach me how to grow black hair, that would help. [00:03:41] Speaker C: What's that common stuff you use called? [00:03:44] Speaker B: You know what? I was at a conference in Florida the other day, and, uh, Lewis Kiger said, yeah, this guy right here. Cause I was the only one at the table, I think, with. With black hair. He's like, yeah, this guy uses the just for men. And I was like, not yet, brother. Not yet. I've got some gray in here in the beard and tops. Not getting too much, but a little bit. [00:04:08] Speaker A: There it is. Matt, did your computer just start playing music? [00:04:19] Speaker B: What was that? An alarm. Dudley's face. [00:04:25] Speaker A: We replaced. We replaced Brian Edwards. A technically challenged with Matt Dudley. What was that? [00:04:38] Speaker B: I don't think. Oh, Matt's. You're muted. [00:04:44] Speaker C: I don't have a clue why it did that. That was my phone. That was the Gaither vocal band. [00:04:50] Speaker A: That's what song that was baptized Jesse Taylor. [00:04:57] Speaker C: I'm just kidding. It's Dirk Spentley. [00:04:58] Speaker A: Okay. I was getting ready to say. I don't know what that is. [00:05:03] Speaker B: You were close. That was your next guess? [00:05:07] Speaker A: That's funny. [00:05:08] Speaker C: I think. Yeah, dude, I didn't touch it. Maybe I had done my watch. [00:05:13] Speaker A: Listen, I'm in 120 year old building here. Nathan's already had the lights come on. You've had music start playing. I don't know what's gonna happen up in here. We call it. [00:05:21] Speaker C: Well, the enemy's fighting us, brothers. [00:05:25] Speaker A: Dude, you get your. Your balcony in? [00:05:28] Speaker C: No. Well, the balcony is. Yes, technically, it's. It's up. It's not completed. You might hear some machines beeping in the background. I'm trying to mute every. Every time I hear them. But, yeah, we're getting there. They're rocking it, though, dude. Yep. [00:05:43] Speaker B: It's looking good. [00:05:45] Speaker C: Yeah. Cool. Yeah, we're adding 150 plus seats. 150 minimum. [00:05:51] Speaker A: That's awesome. [00:05:52] Speaker C: So, yeah, it's nice. It looks good. [00:05:56] Speaker A: Well, it is 1151 on Thursday afternoon. 1051 where deadly's at. And. And this is, I guess, what you would say, the calm before the storm. Who would have thought this far in that? Nate and I are about to get blasted by a hurricane. And, man, we're praying for all of our folks down in Florida and South Georgia and Alabama. Big old Helen. Is that the name of it? [00:06:18] Speaker B: Helene? [00:06:20] Speaker A: Helen? Big old hurricane coming through. So, hopefully, by the time this comes out, it's passed, and you're doing all right but praying for everybody in the path of the storm there. Hey, guys. Big update that we want to let you know about our Israel trip. Of course, if you've paid attention to the news, we are. We're going to have to press pause on the Israel trip. We're going to reschedule and maybe even make some changes to that. We've got some exciting stuff in the possibilities, exciting things in the works that could be a really cool possibility in the future. And so just be checking back. Go to our website, recoveringfundamentalist.org, listen to future episodes, or follow us on our social media. We'll be updating that, but we'll make a. We'll make an update to everybody that has signed up already just in the world that we're living in right now. It just would not be feasible to get over there. In fact, our flights were canceled to get over there. And so we'll make it happen at some point, but we'd love for you to go with us, and I. Nate, man, the possibility of what could take place in place of that is pretty exciting. [00:07:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm excited about it and hoping that that works out and becomes a reality right now. [00:07:35] Speaker C: Almost definitely go on that one. If it works out. [00:07:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Can't wait to see if that happens. So. So, as for now, the Israel trip 2025 is paused, but we will be updating you real soon on what's coming up there. Something that is happening is for the sake of the gospel conference here in Ringle, Georgia. November the very first weekend, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday morning. And we're excited to announce Matt Dudley is going to make it down for. For the sake of the gospel conference. Friday night will be a meetup. Saturday will be. Services will end at our service at Hope Church here in Ringgold on Sunday morning. No ticket to buy, no registration. Lodgings on you. We just want you to come and be part of an incredible conference and hang out with us and just enjoy some good community. I love meeting up with our RF. [00:08:32] Speaker C: That's what Dudley show. [00:08:38] Speaker A: There you go. So Dudley's coming. My hind leg. Yep. Oh, that's funny. Yep. Dudley, I feel like we need to something that we have never done. We created something, and then it just set here on my rodecaster pro. But I feel like we need in our intros, and this is off the cuff, and y'all don't even know what I'm doing here, but I just feel like we need a moment in all of our intros for just an opportunity for you to dish on something real quick. So you have 8 seconds while this intro is about to play, to come up with something very good. You ready? [00:09:16] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm ready. [00:09:18] Speaker A: Well, you know what that sound means. It's time for dishon with Dudley. Sometimes shocking, sometimes abrasive, but always true. It's dissing with Dudley. All right, Matt, you're on. Ready? [00:09:34] Speaker B: Nothing? [00:09:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:09:36] Speaker A: You got nothing? [00:09:37] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, yeah. Nothing that we're not already talking about. [00:09:44] Speaker A: Well, you got the. [00:09:45] Speaker B: I've never known you to not tell you what to dish on. [00:09:49] Speaker C: Yeah. It's more like diss on. I'm usually good at dissing on things. That's what it was. Yeah. You know what's awesome, though? [00:09:57] Speaker A: What? [00:09:58] Speaker C: Is my oldest son is now our youth worship leader, and that there's just nothing like. And I, you know, raising kids, we've. We've never forced our kids to serve in any capacity in the ministry. And all three of my older boys are. Well, actually, all three are on that worship team, but my oldest is leading it, and it's just. Man, I just. I just love that they're doing it by their own. He's 20 years old, engaged to be married, and just seeing your kids serve the Lord because they want to is incredible. So there's my dish for the day. [00:10:34] Speaker A: Well, that was good, but weak. So next time, let's get. [00:10:39] Speaker C: Yeah, I'll come up with something a little more. [00:10:42] Speaker A: I love it. [00:10:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's gonna be a lot of dish in on this episode. [00:10:46] Speaker A: So I was just getting ready to say today's episode. As we said up front, there is a trigger warning. There's also. Just know that some of the content of today's episode, you probably want to make sure you're listening to this. May not be the one to listen to in the car with your kids. Cause we'll be talking about some sensitive subjects today. And today is going to be why legalism doesn't work. And so, guys, I think we should jump right into today's episode. You ready? [00:11:14] Speaker B: I'm ready. [00:11:15] Speaker C: Let's get it. [00:11:16] Speaker A: Let's go. The recovering fundamentalist podcast begins in three. These podcasts. Podcasts that sound like a convention of beans or peas to me. [00:11:42] Speaker D: I podcast listen. [00:11:44] Speaker A: And these recovering fundamentalists, they don't know the Bible either. What are the fundamentals? Inerrancy, virgin birth of Jesus Christ, substitutionary atonement. Amen. Bodily resurrection of Christ, and the authenticity of miracles. [00:11:58] Speaker D: I am not a recovering fundamentalist. [00:12:02] Speaker C: They're everywhere. They're all over the Internet. They want to be, what do they call it? Recovering from fundamentalism. They're everywhere. And I think to myself, well, you were just stupid to begin with, if there's such a word. You're stupider now. [00:12:14] Speaker A: We ain't recovering from nothing, good neighbor. We're reviving from the Holy Ghost. Somebody shine by. [00:12:21] Speaker B: Everybody wants to focus on recovery. Oh, you're recovering. Oh, you need help. You need therapy. You're recovering. Let's focus on fundamentalists. We're recovering fundamentalism back from people who have hijacked it. We are biblical family. We are the fundamentalist. [00:12:37] Speaker A: Man, that'll make a Baptist one of speaking tongues right there, boys. [00:12:43] Speaker D: One. [00:12:44] Speaker A: I'm gonna tell you one thing. We better stay in the old paths. But what are the old paths? I've heard that my whole life, and nobody's ever been able to tell me what the old paths or the old time religion really is, because it's whatever era you overly romanticize in your mind as being when the church was in. Like it, lump it, bump it, jump it, take it across the street and dump it. We've raised a generation that is ashamed of our forefathers and act like they were somehow done wrong in the way they were brought up, and they were damaged and they were scarred because they were raised in a home that had standards and convictions and kept them on the old time way. [00:13:29] Speaker C: You got their number, boys. Y'all thought you started the podcast. You went and started the movement. [00:13:33] Speaker A: Ooh, there it is. All right. Hey, it's good to hear the real OG pappy on that intro right there. [00:13:41] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. [00:13:42] Speaker A: Thanks for tuning in to the recovering fundamentalist podcast. Legalism doesn't work, Nate. You know, when we started the podcast five years ago now, 181 episodes ago, you know, we both jumped all in, and there really wasn't a podcast, per se that had anything to do with the IFB, with legalism, with calling out the sin in the church, if you think about it. I remember that night when we were talking on the phone and said, hey, we need to do something with the podcast that will help expose, but also help people. And that's been our mission statement since day. One of the recovering fundamentalist podcast is to help and encourage those whose lives have been negatively affected by fundamentalist legalism in the church. But the last part is very important as well, and to challenge those who promote tradition over scripture. And in this last six years, there have been a lot of podcasts that have come and gone. So there was podcasts like the Dear Church podcast, Higher Grounds podcast. Nathan, what was the. The one that we interviewed here did a rebuttal to. [00:14:52] Speaker B: So we did a. Just a real brief answer, I think, in our alcohol episode to Dallas Payton Junior, it was Chapel Chimes was the name of it. And he and another guy, actually a guy in Chattanooga, won't call him by name, but they mentioned that we had taken a weaker position on alcohol because we had gone to a biblical position. And we basically called it out and said, you know what, going with what the Bible says and going with what God says in the Bible cannot be called a weaker position is definitely a stronger position. But, yeah, there have been multiple podcasts. [00:15:30] Speaker A: Of course, we've, you know, Eric Swerzinski with preacher boys over there. A lot of our listeners still listen to him. In fact, this story that we're going to cover today, his podcast broke and, you know, sent the link to y'all and I. We started doing some digging because there is a podcast that I guess was being recorded that was a direct result of us starting this podcast. Nate, you. You've dug into it a little bit more. You want to. You want to highlight it? [00:15:57] Speaker B: Yes. So, as you said, when we started this out, there weren't any good, positive, theologically sound podcasts that were calling out legalism in the IFB. Everything that was calling out legalism was coming from an atheist point of view or a super liberal, I would say non christian point of view. And we wanted to record something. When you called me that first night and we talked about at 02:00 in the morning, we wanted to do something that would challenge people to dive in deeper into the word of God, into their faith. And so we started this. And, man, it was just a few months later other podcasts started popping up. And we have the RFP network now, where we have multiple podcasts of our friends that have started doing things like this. But another phenomenon happened. A lot of podcasts started popping up against us, like, literally, specifically calling us out. And I think it's just ironic that the one that got the most traction, the one that became the poster child and the golden boy, that all of the people that hated us went on as guests, and they multiple times mentioned us by name and mentioned, you know, we're not recovering if you're recovering from fundamentalism and all that stuff. So there's no way for anybody to claim that this had nothing to do with us. It was specifically started a couple of years ago as a direct answer to us from a files Anderson guy. And a lot of his people that he interviewed were from Houzz Anderson and other guys that we had talked about and guys that had called us out. So it's like they were kind of teaming up, grouping together to call out our podcast, and we're okay with that. What is it that you always say, JC? Truth doesn't fear a challenge. And we have been challenged, brother, like, over and over and over again. And even in the intro on this podcast, it was literally formed and fashioned to be a copy and a mimic of us. So I think we need to just start out this episode by playing the first episode of the Fundamental Baptist podcast, and then we're going to talk about this, because a lot has happened since this podcast has been released. So let's listen to this. [00:18:18] Speaker E: Welcome to the Fundamental Baptist podcast. There are many types of Baptists, but being a Baptist once meant that you were a fundamentalist. Over the years, many Baptists have strayed from the fundamentals and thus attack those who remain true to the faith. This podcast will address the issues surrounding what it means to be a fundamental Baptist. [00:18:37] Speaker A: Somebody said, brother Howes, fundamentalists are changing, aren't they? No. Fundamentalists don't change, folks. Quit being fundamentalists. God says when the troubles come, he said, fight. You can't fight. He said, withstand. You can't withstand. He said stand. What does it mean to stand? He said, don't change what? Don't change what? Number one, don't change what you believe. [00:18:58] Speaker E: Here we will reason concerning the scriptures, about the doctrines we hold dear. We believe in souls being saved, lives being changed, and Bible doctrines being strengthened by the word of God. We believe in the local church, soul winning missions, and everything taught in the King James Bible. [00:19:15] Speaker D: I thank God tonight for this wonderful Bible. [00:19:19] Speaker A: You know, I thank God. [00:19:20] Speaker D: It's a perfect book and I love the Bible. Doesn't need any addition, no correction, nothing taken from it. [00:19:28] Speaker A: Thank God tonight for the Holy Bible. [00:19:31] Speaker D: I like it just like it is. [00:19:34] Speaker E: We are not ashamed of being fundamental Baptists, and we want to encourage others to remain true to the Bible, their Baptist heritage, and to not change what they have been given. [00:19:43] Speaker A: You just stick with the book. You can't beat this book. Why does every generation feel that we. [00:19:49] Speaker D: Got to change it just a little bit? Because our daddy did it fast for it, and our granddaddy did like that. [00:19:54] Speaker A: And let's change it just a little bit. [00:19:55] Speaker D: You change it, and things that are. [00:19:57] Speaker C: Different are not the same, the same. [00:20:00] Speaker B: Commit now to faithful men. [00:20:02] Speaker E: Thank you for joining us in our discussion of what it means to be a fundamental Baptist. [00:20:08] Speaker D: Hello and welcome. My name is David Baker, and I will be one of the hosts and interviewer for this fundamental Baptist podcast. Welcome to episode zero. What is episode zero? Episode zero is a podcast to give you a little background and understanding of what this podcast will be about. We want to do this podcast. We want to strengthen the biblical and doctrinal issues for churches, Christians and pastors in the church of Sardis. In revelation three two, it says, be watchful and strengthen the things which remain that are ready to die. So many things that we've been taught, what we believe and what's in the Bible has been attacked. And many christians have left those doctrines for dead. They're not dead. They're still in the Bible. And some people believe, teach, and live those things. But many christians, but too many Christians, they are ready to die. We want to take those issues. And like the apostle Paul said in acts 17 two, he said, and Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three Sabbath days, reasoned with them out of the scripture. We want to reason these topics with you from the Bible. Reason means to examine, to discuss by arguments, to debate, to discuss, to persuade by reasoning or argument. We want to rightly divide the word of truth. We want to understand what God is saying in context and know what God wants so we can do what he wants. Like I said, my name is David Baker and I'll be one of your hosts. I was a former paratrooper in the military yeh, second airborne division and been preaching for now over 32 years. So why are you doing this podcast? Two big reasons. After finishing Bible college, I was a youth pastor in Lancaster, California for pastor Paul Chappell. Then I went back to Bible College to finish my master's degree in education and started a church in Columbia, Tennessee. I'm the pastor of the Family Baptist Church in Columbia, Tennessee, vice president of independent Baptist online College. I did not grow up an independent Baptist and had never heard of independent Baptist or fundamental Baptist until I was 21 years old and in the army. I was saved in a southern Baptist church as a kid. Then we moved to an american Baptist church all through high school. When we moved up north, I ended up in an independent baptist church by accident. God the devil preached out of me, got called to preach. God used that independent fundamental baptist church to change my life. That was 32 years ago. So many people that leave these fundamental truths, I see where they're going and it's what I came out of and it's not good. So many times people think, oh, they have some new truth or some new doctrine. No, they aren't new, but they're old, they're errors, they're wrong. They've been around for a long time and other people have had those errors and now you're just going into them and people do not realize how much it's going to hurt them, hurt their children and destroy so many people. I want to help them, not to go into what I came out of. Just to give you one idea, that they were liberal on alcohol. I got caught drinking and had to go talk to the pastor. And when I came home, my dad said, how'd it go? He made me go talk to the pastor. I said, he agrees with me. He doesn't see anything wrong with drinking either. Ooh boy, what a hurt. The youth directors bought alcohol and brought it to the church and gave it to the teenagers and our youth activity and it got worse from there. That's the teenage life that I had in the church. To see where people are going when they get rid of these doctrines is not a good thing. First reason to do this, I thank God for people that are willing to preach truth with conviction and with authority. In this podcast we'll have one or two, maybe sometimes three guests on at a time to discuss and reason concerning the scriptures about a topic my co host is going to be my son in law, brother Tim Peterson. He graduated from Independent Baptist Online College. He is the youth director in our church and he is married to my oldest daughter, great guy, 25 years old. And when so many of his friends and people that he knows are going a different direction, he has seen the truths and has stayed faithful to them and God has blessed him for it. And I look forward to having him on. As you can hear from his perspective as a 25 year old why you're still standing with these old fundamentals, fundamental doctrines that are true than that are right. We'll discuss topics that are important and relevant to our churches, Christians, and to Americans as a whole. We'll discuss the fundamentals, the back to distinctives, and the shift of churches to back away from the truths of the word of God that have caused so many christians to fall away from the faith, mess up their lives and families. The second reason for doing this is because of the people I've seen hurt go down this path. Let me tell you a story. There was a young preacher who went to Bible College in the fall of 1988, the same semester I started in Bible college. Not too far away from where I went. He graduated, got a seminary degree, and went to work for Ed Dobson as an assistant pastor. Ed Dobson got a degree from Bob Jones University and worked with Jerry Falwell back in the eighties before becoming a pastor. The assistant pastor ended up leaving that church and starting his own church and totally went away from the truths of the Bible. He accepts homosexual marriage as good and right. He rejects hell as an eternal place of fiery punishment, rejects Jesus as the only way to heaven, and many other false doctrines. That young man's name is Rob Bell, the author of Love wins and the former pastor of Marshfield Bible Church. I had someone that went much of the same way, an assistant pastor for nine years. Great guy. I met him at 18, sent him to Bible College, performed the wedding for he and his wife was there for every child in the hospital to pray for them. Best assistant pastor at the time. But he changed. Something happened. Proverbs 24 21 says my son, fear. Bow the Lord and the king and meddle not with them that are given to change. We're supposed to grow and change. But when we are given to change and question everything that is dangerous, people say, well, truth can handle scrutiny. And that's true, but it depends on where you're going to get those questions answered. So many times they have searched out a question and come up with the wrong answer and hurt themselves and their family. They think they are recovering from fundamentalism, but they're changing, and not in a good way. Are you sure you're recovering from fundamentalism? They went from changing to destruction. Where are you going to end up? Where are your children going to end up? It's amazing how many people are more tolerant of atheists that hate God and are upset about the preaching. They used to hear preach even though it's from the Bible. Here's what happens. They were taught things. They questioned them. They didn't like them. There's a part of a rebel in all of us. It does not like someone telling us what to do and what we're supposed to. I've heard many podcasts from people that have gone a different direction. And almost all of them start out with how they rebelled against the rules. They didn't like being told what to do. They didn't like the convictions. They didn't like the standards. They didn't like the rules. And now they found an excuse to go that direction. They change the position on what we believe from the Bible. The position from truth to error starts with how we live or how we want to live. We changed the Bible to justify our lifestyle. I was out soul winning, met a young man and asked him if he knew if he died, he'd go to heaven. He said, I'm an atheist. Okay, so you don't believe the Bible, right? No. So you don't believe the Bible at all. But what about what the Bible says about someone who says there's no God? He said, what do you mean? So I quoted what the Bible says, that the fool has said in his heart, there's no God. They are corrupt and have done abominable works. I said, the reason why you say there's no God is because there's some things in your life that aren't right. You don't want to admit that. So instead of changing those things, what you do is say there's no God. That way I can do whatever I want. I didn't know if he was going to hit me or get mad. And he looked at me and said, you're right. I said, so, can I show you from the Bible how to go to heaven? He said, yes, and he got saved. Two weeks later, I met a lady. She said, I'm an atheist. Oh, okay. I told her the story about the young man I met, and she said, you're right. I said, can I show you how to go to heaven? She said, yes, and she trusted Christ. It's amazing. We have who we are, what we are what we believe, what we want to do, and then we change. The Bible to make could fit us so many times. It starts with rebellion and disobedience. We've already made our decision to rebel. Have you reasoned with someone to see the other side that you are missing? I'm not here to bash those people that have changed. I'm here to kindly say, think, consider reason. Your life could very easily be destroyed. Your children's life could very easily be destroyed. And where you stop, nobody knows. My pastor used to say that change is a position. When you start changing, where you end up, nobody knows. And you're not going to like that. When someone says, follow me, we should ask or look to see where they're taking me. The destination should determine the direction. Think about that. The destination should determine the direction. In every place we go, we look at the end. Where do we want to end up at? And then back up and see what turns we need to make to get there. Where do you want to end up? You may not like where you're going to end. My assistant pastor started changing things. Last I heard, he's an agnostic. His son is a full blown atheist, hates God, vehement, vile, cursing, hates God, denies the Bible. His kids are homosexual, bisexual, into drugs, and worse things than that that I won't go into. What happened? Did he want to end up there? Did he think he or his kids would end up there? No, but that's what happens. I hate it. I hurt for him. I still love him. I hurt for him. I hurt for his family. I hurt for all the people that followed him that ended up divorced or drinking or doing drugs or life. Just turned away from God and from serving God. It worked with me for nine years and did what Rod Bell did and went and started another church and pastor that for a couple years and bounced around a few places and again. Now as an agnostic, no church, no God. And his kids are even worse than that. It doesn't have to be that way. God has richly blessed us. Life, ministry, family, kids. How come? Because we say, here's the truth, here's the word of God. I don't want to change the Bible to fit my lifestyle. I want to change my lifestyle to fit the Bible. So we should more stay with what we've been taught than trying to find some new thing. Romans 1617 says, now I beseech you, brethren, mark them, which cause strife and divisions, offenses and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned, and avoid them. Paul is very careful to say, listen, careful of the people who get away from the doctrine that you've learned. Second Thessalonians two five. Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which he had been taught, whether by word or our epistle. We'll talk about that. A lot of people tear up and destroy. All these traditions are horrible. Paul told them to hold the traditions that you've been taught. Colossians chapter two. It says, as ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the lord, so walk ye in him. You received him this way. Walk in him this way, rooted and built up, established in the faith as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware the state of men spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit. After the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ, beware. So many times in people, that's what's happening. Galatians six seven says, ye did run well. Who did hinder you that you should not obey the truth? Sometimes people are doing well and they got with the wrong crowd, or listened to the wrong thing, or read the wrong thing and what happened to them. Second Timothy two, two. And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same. Commit thou to faithful men who shall be able to teach others also. Hey, the things you heard, you teach those things. That's my job. My job's not to create something new or find some new thing. I'm to take the truths of the word of God that I was taught, and I am to teach those and help other people with those and their life. That's what I'm supposed to do and to work on. And I think we'd be a lot better off if that's what we did, how we handle things. So we want to help you to keep the things that we've been taught that are right and biblical and helpful in our lives. Since the name of this podcast is the Fundamental Baptist podcast, in the closing of episode zero, I want to talk to you about those two main words. One is fundamental. Fundamental is to many people considered either bad or out of date. Fundamental is an adjective pertaining to the foundation or basis. Okay, fundamental basketball, is that a good thing? Absolutely. Fundamental football, absolutely a great thing. Vince Lombardi, a great Green Bay packers football coach, started every year with the fundamentals by saying, then this is a football. I think they probably knew that in the pros by them, but that's how we started off. So fundamental is an adjective pertaining to the foundation of what? Fundamental basketball, fundamental football. How about this? Fundamental Mormon? Is that a good thing? No, racist and polygamist. That's fundamental mormonism. How about fundamental Islam? Back to Muhammad and either convert or die and marry nine year olds. Fundamental Islam, not a good thing. Fundamental Baptist. Is that a good thing? Absolutely. The beginning or the foundation which goes back to the first church, the Bible and Jesus. Every Christian should be a fundamental Christian and every Baptist should be a fundamental Baptist. So that is it. As a adjective pertaining to the foundation describing fundamental basketball, football, fundamental Mormon, fundamental Islam or fundamental Baptist. Fundamental as a noun is a leading or primary principle, a rule, a law, an article which serves as the groundwork of the system, essentially as part of the fundamentals of the christian faith. As a noun. Most people have known and heard the five fundamentals. Now they're not just five fundamentals. There are a lot more. But these were the ones that were written about in the early 19 hundreds put together. The inerrancy of scripture, okay? No errors in it. The Bible is true and perfect. Well, we've gotten away from that. The virgin birth of Christ, many people don't believe that, but he was. Christ was not conceived by man but by the Holy Spirit. The substitutionary atonement of Christ. Jesus paid what I deserve to pay. Substitution. He paid the hell I deserved. Number four, the bodily resurrection of Christ wasn't just in spirit. He bodily resurrected. He was dead, buried and rose again. And the reality of the miracles of Christ. Okay, so many times people don't believe the miracles. They want to make it just chance. No, they are true. And so those were, quote, the five fundamentals. There's a lot more we'll get into. That's just getting started. And then fundamental Baptists, they have a Baptist acrostic showing what many Baptists believe that most people don't. Biblical authority. The Bible is our authority in all manner. The autonomy of the local church. It's not to be ruled or governed by a hierarchy anywhere else, it's auto, you can run it by itself. The independent independence of the local church, the priesthood of the believer. We can go to God directly, ourselves as a priest, to pray. We don't have to go through Mary or through a pope or through a priest. We are a priest. Two ordinances, okay? The two ordinances of baptism and the Lord's supper, those don't save you, but those are two things instituted that churches recognize. Individual soul liberty. Okay? With individual soul liberty. It is me. It is my, I'm the one that's going to have to stand before God and give an account of myself, and I am to do what I believe. The Bible teaches me to do. God gives us. Pastors and teachers will talk about that sometimes in the balance of that, save church membership. Okay. To be a member of the church, you're not born into it, you're not baptized as an infant into it. You have to be saved, and then you're added to the church, to officers, pastors and deacons. In the Bible, God uses the word bishop and elder and pastor for the same office, and then deacons, and then separation of church and state. We believe the church and state should be separate, that the state should not run the church and the state should not have a religion, meaning they're going to have a state religion like many of the colonies did, and persecute the ones that are nothing. Okay. So again, those things are just getting started. We'll have a lot more topics to help people with. We believe you'll learn things here, we believe you'll be strengthened here, and we believe you'll have some fun here. Typically, people put down fundamentalists by saying they are no fun. They are all damnation and no mental or no thinking. Okay. We think all three of those stereotypes will not be found here. So welcome to the Fundamental Baptist podcast. We look forward to you being around a lot and getting to learn a lot of good things. God bless you. And if you have any questions, feel free to send them in to us. We would love to be able to help you guys with any questions that you have. God bless you. [00:37:34] Speaker C: Yeah, guys. That was hard to listen to. [00:37:36] Speaker B: Gosh. Yeah. Especially knowing where this whole thing is going. And for those who don't know, we'll get there in just a few minutes. But let's, let's deal with some of what he said in that episode. I just, listening to this and I've listened to multiple episodes this week just reminds me over and over, legalism just does not work. The first main thing I noticed in that is how he's boldly, unashamedly promoting Jack Howells. [00:38:08] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:38:09] Speaker B: Who is a known abuser. A known abuser enabler. Sending multiple abusers to other churches, including his son, and just, just boldly putting him in the intro and speaking highly of him and then talking about guys like us who change on some secondary and third level things that, that just blew my mind. [00:38:35] Speaker C: Can we talk about some of the things that he said, though? [00:38:37] Speaker B: Yeah, let's do it. [00:38:39] Speaker C: Because there were, I mean, it's very indicative. Obviously, we hear it. I've got a very high, like, radar for legalism, the way that they twist words and lie and lie psycho babble. [00:38:53] Speaker A: Like he said, a youth leader brought beer to the church. [00:38:58] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah, and. But here's. But, but the. But the deeper psychological angle that they're trying to play is. It's that whole. That's that whole slippery slope. Fear monger. Well, if you. If you leave the IFB, your kids are going to go to hell. Youth pastors will be bringing alcohol to youth group. You know, it's like, really, dude? I mean. Okay, let's pretend that that happened. Maybe it did. Maybe he was at a church in the. I mean, youth pastors have done stupid things before. Let's say that happened. That is obviously not what typically happens. [00:39:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:37] Speaker C: When somebody leaves the IFB. When somebody leaves it, you're. You leave the. Everybody I've known leave the IVB. Their kids are homosexual, transgender, psych. Dude, stop. [00:39:46] Speaker A: Put an earring in their ear and grow their hair and listen to Metallica. Like, he literally just hit every talking point. That is somebody leaving the IFB. It's like, pulled the card out and said, all right, checkbox, checkbox, checkbox. It's just hit it in this episode. Zero. [00:40:04] Speaker C: I loved how he used, you know, the. The word. At least in the KJV, the word tradition is used eleven times. Ten out of the eleven times is in the negative connotation. And it's usually in the gospels. Jesus calling out that they were. [00:40:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:21] Speaker C: You know, leaving true doctrine for tradition. He found the one time that there is a positive reference, and it's not even in the context that. That he tried to use it in. It's just crazy, dude. Like, they're. They're there. [00:40:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Paul is telling the church to hold on the traditions he passed down to them. Paul is an apostle. That's the apostolic tradition, which is scripture and sound doctrine. I hate to tell David this. He's not an. He's not an apostle. Neither is Jack Howe. I mean, that. That part, to me was incredibly frustrating. But people are listening to that, and people are believing that the traditions that are passed down, that's not talking about extra biblical teachings. It's not talking about King James only ism. [00:41:16] Speaker C: No. Or pants on women. [00:41:20] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:41:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:21] Speaker C: Or contemporary music. [00:41:23] Speaker B: But those are the. Those are the talking points. Right. That's what he's worried about. He mentioned the fundamentals. We have the fundamentals in our intro that we just played. We accept all of the fundamentals. And then he wants to call us out and say, we're the ones that have changed, but we obviously haven't changed on major biblical doctrine. We haven't changed on any orthodox teaching of the historical church, the teachings of the apostles. What we've changed on is extra biblical, man made teachings and standards that were invented by men to hold power over people. We haven't changed pretty much everything. [00:42:02] Speaker A: He was talking. [00:42:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And if you listen to all hundred and whatever episodes, 180 something episodes he's recorded, I haven't listened to all of them, but I've listened to a lot. And he's nothing. Talking about the fundamentals. He's talking about pants on women. He's talking about King James version. He's talking about his pet doctrines that are manmade additions, not scripture. [00:42:26] Speaker A: His angle was, I left that to come to the IFB. And how many people are leaving the IFB? And if you go away from these traditions, you're going into that hedonistic world that I left to come into this great thing. It's gaslighting and all. Sense of the purpose. [00:42:42] Speaker C: Yeah, speaking of gaslighting, JC, he said, you know, he said, and I quote, they have, they have some new truth or some new doctrine. Those who are leaving the IFB, they always have some new truth. I'm like, again, what, what new truth? What new, what new doctrine? What doctrines have we left? He talked about the word fundamental. I personally use the term fundamental all the time. [00:43:08] Speaker B: Yep. [00:43:09] Speaker C: When I'm teaching on the actual fundamentals of the faith, which he thankfully gave us a reference on, inerrancy of scripture, virgin birth, substitutionary atonement, bodily resurrection, reality of miracles. Preached that consistently. And I didn't even disagree with the baptist acronym. And I was surprised I didn't remember it because I had to memorize that in college. But I believe that too. [00:43:31] Speaker B: Another thing that really stood out to me was how he took verses out of context. Strengthen the things that remain. Revelation, guys. Three, two, I hate to tell you, I hate to inform everybody in the independent fundamental Baptist, that's not talking about the King James version. It hadn't even been written yet. So strengthen the things that remain. That's talking about biblical doctrine. That's talking about the teachings of the apostles, the teachings of Jesus and man. It's just amazing how quickly and how easily he takes verses, twists them out of context, because he's been using them for years and years and years, and no one ever questions that. The verse in second Thessalonians hold on to the traditions that I've passed down. That's not talking about IfB, man made doctrine. That's talking about the apostles doctrine. Colossians two, receive him as you received him. So walk in him. This is a big thing. So he's. He's using this in such a subjective way that the things he was taught, he's not ever allowed to change anything. Well, what about the guy that's brought up in a liberal church, a Methodist church, that believes homosexuality is okay? Is he not allowed to change anything? No, he needs to change things. Anything. I was taught in the IFB, I need to change those things to line up with the Bible. So he's literally twisting the Bible out of its context to prove what he wants to prove. [00:45:06] Speaker C: And, dude, you know, is one of the things that made that hard to listen to is hearing him say those things. I went back to when I was a new convert, and. And when I started hearing stuff like that because it appealed to. It appealed to me because I thought I wasn't well versed in scripture, and I thought, well, man, no, you can't. You can't change the Bible. You can't change the doctrine. And I remember in my very innocent, newly converted heart, that is kind of that type of teaching that we just listened to was exactly what lured me and roped me into legalism because they do the whole bait and switch. That was the whole thing for me. With the King James version, I heard Jack Isles specifically, you know, talking about, well, you know, this is the word of God. You can't change the word of God. And I'm like, yeah, we can't change the word of God. But they were equating that with the KJV. You know, I'm saying, yeah, it was like, yeah, you're appealing to things that. I believe it at the core of my. My convictions, but. But you're making it. Yeah. Anyway, but it was. That's what made it hard to listen to for me, just because I remember being naive and not well versed in scripture as a new Christian, and that's. That's how I wound up in it. I like the part where he talked about us being. Being called rebels, and I thought, because that. That's another one of those fear tactics, that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. Well, we're. I am okay with telling you that I'm a. I'm a rebel to the core when it comes to things that go against the word of God. And we have to be. I will rebel against teaching that is extra biblical and taking scripture and completely twisting it out of context. We're supposed to rebel against that. Rebellion is a good thing when you're rebelling against things that are against God. So I just thought that was interesting that he pulled that card, because that's, again, just a textbook IFB, legalistic tactic to try and incite fear in people. [00:47:15] Speaker A: And a lot of the guests that he's had on the, that podcast feed, that fire, they stoke his fire to continue to preach the. The way that he is trying to present as truth. Nate, I think you. You came up with a list of a lot of the guests that he's had on that podcast. [00:47:33] Speaker B: So, yeah, we. He's. He's had a lot of people on here that, guys that just hate us, also guys that are known abusers, guys that have enabled abusers. [00:47:43] Speaker A: He's platformed a lot of people. [00:47:44] Speaker B: He's platformed a lot of people, and these guys flock to him. And now these guys are going to have to. They're going to have to answer for this because now they're connected with this guy. The main one that was on there multiple times was Dave Hiles, who is. He was actually on the board of that ministry that is trying to restore fallen pastors to the office of pastor. I'm all for restoration ministry. Pastors need to be loved, restored after they've fallen. We've had a lot of that. We see a lot of that, but that doesn't mean they're restored to the office of lead pastor. And Dave Hiles is a guy that was moved around from church to church by Jack Howes, his daddy, and allowed to abuse more and more and more women. But, yeah, we've had guys go on here like Bob Gray, and we've had guys like Guy Beaumont, who is probably one of the most vocal opponents, mocking, making fun of everything we say, everything we do. And yet he's a huge fan of this guy and goes on, does two episodes with him, and they're just bragging on each other how much they love one another. And now guy Beaumont's name is connected to this dude, John Wilkerson. [00:49:00] Speaker A: He's silent. [00:49:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. John Wilkerson, who is very against everything we're doing and privately has spoken out against us, won't do it publicly. But John Wilkerson, who's still the pastor of the church that Jack Hiles founded and connected with. Hiles Anderson University, he's on here. So all these guys, other guys. Jeff smale and I won't go on naming, but there's. There's so many other guys that, against everything we're doing. And now they're connected with this dude. [00:49:32] Speaker A: And it's not just that they hate us, it's also the fact that they are continuing to promote this rhetoric that is just not biblical. It is fanning the flame of manmade ideology and preference and they're just stoking the fire of it being Bible and right and the only way, and it's, it's doing more to harm the name of Christianity, of Jesus than it is to help, in my opinion. [00:49:58] Speaker B: Right. [00:49:59] Speaker C: Well, and I think we all agree that we're not saying that everyone is guilty by association. No, but it's, it's exactly that. That. Okay. It's right. Every, people can take us by surprise. You know, we think we know somebody and then something comes out. It's like, holy cow, I didn't see that. But it's what you just said, JC. It's the fact that they are still, like, they, they'll drive the stakes even deeper. They'll continue to double down on, well, you know, all these recovering fundamentalists and these liberals and compromisers and they'll continue saying all that stuff and in some ways making, I don't know if any of them are trying to make a martyr out of him or trying to claim that he was. I haven't heard any of that. I can only tolerate so much of it. But it's just the fact that they're promoting a broke system. [00:50:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:54] Speaker C: And they will continue to promote that broken system as a virtue and as a biblical conviction when it's, it's not that. And that's what we're screaming about. It's like, dude, please stop saying you can believe anything you want to, you can take any stand, any conviction, whatever you want to call it, but stop trying to twist the Bible. You don't get to have your own private interpretation of scripture and then still pretend like it's the, it's the, it's the magic that if you don't stay in this way, you know, you're going to be homosexual and your kids are going to go to hell. And just knock that crap off. Because obviously legalism doesn't work. And I know, I think you guys have highlighted this passage before, but I always think of what Paul said in one corinthians chapter 15 when he says the strength of sin is the law. I think Brian said something one time along the lines of trying to live by the law is like injecting your sin nature with steroids or. Yeah, not a direct quote, but, but it's like the more you try to bind the flesh with chains, the more you're gonna feel like a caged animal and the more. Anyway, so. But the strength of sin is the law is such a powerful statement, in my opinion. So let's get into that. [00:52:13] Speaker B: Yeah. So all, all 103 episodes of this podcast are, I believe, a masterclass on legalism. It shows what really matters to the independent fundamental Baptist, and it's not the fundamentals. What really matters to them are their little man made doctrines, and that's what they're known by. Those are the independent Baptist distinctives. Because if, if it really was the fundamentals of the faith, they would have no problem whatsoever fellowshiping with guys like us because we hold to the fundamentals, we preach the fundamentals. Yet they open an entire podcast, start and do 103 episodes to speak out against us and literally lie and manipulate what we are. What he's insinuating in that first episode we listened to is that we've rejected the fundamentals, that we're giving kids alcohol, that we're going to be these sexual sinners, these drug addicts, these alcoholics. That's what he's insinuating. He ties our name to that and it's just a lie. [00:53:20] Speaker C: Right. I would be interested, and I'm saying this completely off the cuff without having checked, but I would be curious to know how many episodes of that podcast. Podcast actually deal with the fundamentals. The fundamentals that he listed. Yeah, I'd be curious to know. [00:53:38] Speaker A: Well, Nathan said he didn't listen to all of them, but, you know, he has. How many deal with the fundamentals, Nathan? [00:53:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:53:45] Speaker B: Hey, Matt, you, you were talking before behind the scenes about some things that had happened to you very similar to this. Would you mind sharing that now? [00:53:57] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So when years ago, and I lose track of time, I'd say 1213 years ago, when it's not when I first started studying, like, re examining what I believed, but when I began coming to certain conclusions, such as, you know, the whole pants on women thing was not biblical. That's not what Paul was talking about when he said modest apparel. And so there was a point at which my, I, my wife began wearing pants. She didn't wear pants the first twelve years that we were married. And so I got a phone call from a guy that I had preached for several times. And the call was along the lines of, hey, brother, you know, just concerned about some things that I'm hearing. I heard that your wife has been, you know, started wearing britches, and, you know, I sat on the other end of the phone and listened for a minute and I. The conclusion was in no uncertain terms, don't worry about what my wife's wearing, you know, but it came out about. I think it came out in 2020, maybe 21, that during the same time that he was so concerned about my wife wearing pants, the same pastor, he had been molesting his own daughter. And so he had the audacity, and this is what kills me. He had the audacity to make a phone call to me, I'll never preach you again. I'll never have you in again. I'm like, okay, dude, good. That's. I'm fine with that. He had the audacity to call me out on my wife, who is a very modest woman in the biblical context of what that means, all the while messing with and abusing his, his own daughter. I mean, that's. That's. [00:55:41] Speaker B: That's what legalism does, I think, dude. [00:55:44] Speaker C: I mean, yeah, I'm no psychiatrist. [00:55:47] Speaker A: Like, how do you. Does it make them feel better about what they're saying if they can call. [00:55:52] Speaker C: Other people sin out, I guess. Smokescreen, whatever you want to call it. Jesus said, straining at a gnat and. And swallowing a camel. It's like, dude, how in the world. And I don't know how they don't see themselves in the caricature, caricatures of the Pharisees in the New Testament. How do you not see that it is the. The. The descriptions that Jesus gave are so spot on accurate that it's shocking that. [00:56:23] Speaker A: They can read a lack of fear of God. [00:56:25] Speaker C: I think it has to. That's. [00:56:27] Speaker B: That's the heart of it, JC. You nailed it. [00:56:30] Speaker C: Yeah, well, and they. They fear man. You know, the Bible says that the fear of man is. Is a snare. [00:56:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:38] Speaker C: And so when you're in that bondage and you're following men rather than following Jesus, I guess that's the natural outcome in this case. [00:56:46] Speaker A: One of the quotes that he just said on episode zero, he said the destination that you choose as you're leaving the fundamentals the old time way. He said, you might not like where you end up. [00:57:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:57:01] Speaker A: And I find it very interesting that he used that language, given how he ended up. [00:57:11] Speaker F: David Baker, a Murray county pastor here at Family Baptist Church, a former mural candidate and staff at Independence Baptist Online College, accused of molesting a relative under the age of twelve. [00:57:24] Speaker C: There is nothing godly about him. [00:57:27] Speaker A: He is a wolf in sheep's clothing. [00:57:29] Speaker F: Amy Spires went to one of Baker's former churches. [00:57:33] Speaker B: There's no telling how many victims, how many girl victims that are out there. [00:57:37] Speaker A: That he may have done this to. [00:57:39] Speaker F: Baker was booked into a Murray county jail yesterday for an aggravated sexual battery charge. Another former church member, Tiffany Boyd, is upset at what he's accused of doing, considering what he preached, a hypocrite. [00:57:54] Speaker D: There are a lot of words, but. [00:57:56] Speaker A: Many of those I can't say on camera. [00:57:58] Speaker D: It's infuriating. I mean, it really, it's infuriating. [00:58:02] Speaker F: A captain with a Columbia Police Department says Baker shot himself at Murray Regional Medical center today after bonding out. The hospital spokesperson confirms a man shot himself twice in the chest inside their bathroom, tried to save him, and place the hospital on lockdown in Columbia. [00:58:19] Speaker B: Kara Nagalar Fox guys, that is a nightmare. [00:58:23] Speaker A: Result of sin. [00:58:25] Speaker B: It's a nightmare and it's a disaster. And I just want to say before we go any further that our hearts go out to his family. This is not intended to make their pain any worse. I hope they never hear this. I hope they never come across it. But if they do, our hearts go out to them because this is a tragedy. David Baker, the guy who attacked us, the guy who spoke out against anybody who believed anything differently than the IFB, basically pled guilty when he took a gun and shot himself twice and killed himself and left his family in financial trouble, literally put the house up for the money to bail out, to bond out, and then walked into the emergency room bathroom and killed himself. And, guys, we're not trying to discard. [00:59:16] Speaker A: His two granddaughters for life. [00:59:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, on top of all that. But, yeah, that's. That's horrible that the shooting himself is not as horrible as what he did to those girls, to his own family. And the last episode, he talks about how many years he had been faithful to his wife, how many years he'd been living a holy, godly life. And if the independent fundamental Baptist movement has taught us anything, as David Baker illustrates, it's that you can have all the militant separatist convictions and standards that you want to add to the Bible, and you can be a man pleaser, and you can still be separated from God. You can still be disobedient to God, you can still be a hypocrite, you can still be a pharisee, and you can say all the things you want to and try to lift up all your legalistic standards and still be a wolfenk in sheep's clothing. [01:00:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:00:14] Speaker C: And, JC, you said something earlier. I think it was behind the mic, but you were talking about how you don't just. You don't just go. You don't just one day go from being virtuous and living a clean life to to committing heinous sexual crimes. [01:00:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:32] Speaker C: So I, again, to borrow from. From their. One of their favorite terms, a slippery slope, dude. What was going on over who knows how long while all while maintaining this. This quote unquote high moral standard and judging people for, I mean, far less. You know, it's just. It's disturbing. [01:01:02] Speaker A: Fake hypocrisy. It's evil. It's. I mean, Nathan, you said it. How many barriers you have to break through to molest a child. [01:01:12] Speaker C: Right. [01:01:12] Speaker A: Much less your granddaughters. Yeah, that's just. It's. It's. It's evil on a whole different level. [01:01:18] Speaker C: It's hard to even talk about. [01:01:19] Speaker B: It is. [01:01:20] Speaker A: It is. [01:01:20] Speaker C: I struggle even having this conversation because it's hard to have this conversation and actually stay spiritual. I get so irate over that topic. [01:01:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And we had difficult. We had some people tell us we shouldn't do this episode because what have. What's happened? But number one, we need to do this because this is the natural end of legalism. This is where legalism leads. Legalism just doesn't work. And I don't feel bad at all calling out a pedophile who spoke out against us and our families. We've had guys, JC, you've. You've had it. I've had it, Matt, you've had it with your wife. We've had guys speak about our wives and daughters, the way they're dressed in photos or going to the beach and bathing suits. And we've had guys that are doing junk like this that are talking about our wives and our girls. And I don't mind calling this out. [01:02:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:17] Speaker B: David Baker's story is a nightmare. It is a disaster. It breaks my heart, but it has to be called out because this is what they're peddling. This is what they're selling. It's legalism, and it doesn't work. And I haven't heard one of the men that he had on his podcast speak out against this junk. They're scared. The same way that he wouldn't speak out against Jack Hobbs is the same way. They're not speaking out against him. And they need to be called out, and we're calling them out. [01:02:48] Speaker C: When you think about some of the things that have been said and restated by IFB preachers, and of course, there's the famous quote by Jack Hiles saying, for every young man sitting in a jail cell for raping a girl, there should be a scantily clad girl sitting right in the cell next to him. You know what? I'm saying, like, dude, you. That's twisted on so many levels to make statements like that. But when a person adopts that mindset that. That I'm not responsible to keep my own heart with all diligence, and it's someone else's fault. So every woman who's dressed what I as in a way that I deem inappropriate or immodest, you know, it's her fault for showing herself off to me. If she hadn't done that, I wouldn't have lusted. That's psychotic, dude. [01:03:42] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. [01:03:43] Speaker C: And I think it breeds a certain level of narcissism and maybe even sociopathy in a, in a leader that teaches those types of things and would say those types of things, that's pervert. Just that statement alone, if that was the only thing Jack Hiles ever said, I would have. I would quit listening to him simply because of that statement. [01:04:05] Speaker B: Yep. [01:04:05] Speaker C: That's. Anyway, so it's disturbing. Like I said, I have a very difficult time even having this conversation. I hate that we have to address it, but as we've stated entitled this episode, legalism does not work. You cannot legislate righteousness. [01:04:23] Speaker B: Nope. [01:04:24] Speaker C: You can't put more bondage on the flesh and expect it to work. Jesus sets us free, and that freedom is found in truth. It's found in his grace, and it's found through walking in his spirit. And as we've already said, I hope that we understand. Anybody can, can sin, anybody can fall. But, man, when you, when you do things like that, again, there are things that are against nature. And I would, I would without a doubt put. Harming a child. [01:04:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:58] Speaker C: Violating a child as not even being a natural passion of the flesh. We are all tempted in the same way. You know what I'm saying? We're all susceptible, but that's beyond natural temptation. That is some high form or deep level of depravity that I hope I could never comprehend. I hope I could never get to that point and think that way. But it fits into a romans one, reprobation in the sense it's not even a natural. It's not even a natural lust. It's not natural for a man to look at a child and have, have sexual desires or feelings. It's just, it's beyond. [01:05:39] Speaker B: It's disgusting. [01:05:41] Speaker C: It's disgusting. Yeah. [01:05:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And guys, I think a good way to wrap up this episode would be to just talk about what really matters. Legalism doesn't work. Man made rules that can never be the focus of the church. What really matters is the gospel. What really matters is loving Jesus. Loving God. Jesus said in romans 17 that eternal life was to know God, to know him, to love him, to worship him. And the defining mark of the christian church is not that women wear dresses and men have short hair. The defining mark of the christian church is our love for one another. And we can disagree on second and third level things, man, I'm perfectly fine. If some dude wants to have a standard, how he dresses, how his kids dress, it's their home. I'm not going to speak out against that when he starts making that the mark of Christianity, the mark of holiness, the standard of acceptability and approval and pleasure of God. That's where it's wrong. You can have your own standards. We all have standards. We all have convictions, and we haven't changed that. The thing is, we're just trying to get our standards and convictions in line with scripture, not in line with Jack Hiles, not in line with what the brethren say. There, there. There are a lot of people in the branch of which I don't even know if we even have a home. I don't know if we can really call ourselves a denomination or whatever, but within the guys we fellowship, we have a ton of differences, but we know that the gospel is what matters. The love of Christ being shed abroad in our hearts is what matters. And we are called to live a humble life. And I don't know if there is a single word that flies in the face of the IFB more than humble, because those dudes are not humble. I've met some that are. But the guys that are outspoken and the guys that this dude is associated with, they're proud, they're arrogant, and they're proud about their pride. [01:07:48] Speaker C: Yep. [01:07:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:49] Speaker C: You took the words out of my mouth because I was going to say we, the three of us, understand that sexual sin, even of the most heinous kind, is not relegated to the IFB. We get that really the essence of the problem, I think the core of the problem is, is exactly what you just said. It's arrogance, it's pride. I mean, if God resists the proud, but he gives grace to the humble, and we're told to stand in that grace, just as you were saying, that's learning to live out the gospel and live a gospel centered life. And that's the only thing that protects any of us. Of course, as I stated before, I think this case falls into an unnatural lust into an area that we're not. I don't believe we are commonly tempted in when when the Bible says Jesus was tempted at all points, like as we are, yet without sin, I do not believe he was tempted in the unnatural realm. There are natural appetites that we have as human beings, but that's. That's so beyond nature. To harm a child and then to harm a child that is your own flesh and blood. I can't. I just can't comprehend that. [01:08:58] Speaker A: I think ultimately, thinking about the human heart and how to pray, we are like. We. We need the gospel to be preached to us again and again and again. And I think this ideology, especially in the IFB, is that the gospel, it just gets you in the door. It doesn't just save us, it sustains us. And as followers of the way, we need the gospel just as much as an unbeliever, if you will. I mean, what does Romans one say? That I'm eager to preach the gospel to those who are in Rome. I mean, these are addressing professing christians. You know, the gospel is the greatest treasure that we have. It's better than any temporary gratification, greater than any pleasure of sin to enjoy. And I mean, knowing that there's no good thing that we can do to make God love us, that the gospel is what sustains us. It helps us to follow him, to obey him, rather than take advantage of his grace. And I think that's what we have to find ourselves do because, you know, we've got to have the gospel preached to us over and over again. And unfortunately, the reason legalism doesn't work is because it's void of the gospel. It's man made ideology preached as gospel. It's not the true gospel. And that's why we got to make sure that we have the true gospel preached to us over and over and over again. [01:10:17] Speaker B: Amen. Which is why you need to come to the. For the sake of the gospel conference speaking about the gospel. [01:10:25] Speaker A: Hey, there it is. [01:10:26] Speaker C: You know, hey. But there are some amazingly practical truths contained in the gospel that have to do with our daily living. Just as saying it's not, obviously, the gospel is a one and done in the sense of, I was born again in that moment when. When Christ redeemed me, the spirit, you know, regenerated me. But it is that daily life of living it. And there are, again, as I stated, there are practical ways that we will be sharing at that conference on how to live out the gospel. [01:10:57] Speaker A: We have been saved. [01:10:59] Speaker C: Beautiful. [01:10:59] Speaker A: Being saved. [01:11:00] Speaker C: We will be saved. [01:11:03] Speaker B: That's our three sermons right there, JC. [01:11:05] Speaker A: There it is. I just thought about that. That was it. We've been saved. [01:11:08] Speaker B: That would be really good. [01:11:10] Speaker C: You know, obviously was. I learned that. That those three points in college, in the IFB college I went to, that I am saved. I'm being saved and I will be saved. [01:11:19] Speaker A: But just didn't live it out. [01:11:20] Speaker C: Didn't live it out. Absolutely. Absolutely. [01:11:23] Speaker A: Well, thanks for tuning in to this episode. Today, legalism doesn't work. It's just a theme, if you will, for who we are as a podcast, because we are. Our whole goal in this 181 episodes is to show you that legalism doesn't work. But the gospel is the foundation that you can build your life on. And we hope that. But today, unfortunately, through this evil tragedy, this disgusting act that was done, that you can see the gospel is what we need every day of our lives to build our life on. [01:12:01] Speaker B: And, JC, I feel like I need to say again, we never celebrate when any pastor falls. I hate ever this story. I hate what it means for his family. But I will celebrate when a legalistic ministry falls. I will celebrate when a podcast gets shut down that is leading people astray. I will celebrate when ministries that are enabling abusers gets exposed. And that's why we chose to go ahead and do this, even though it's a difficult decision. [01:12:32] Speaker A: Yep. [01:12:32] Speaker C: And the continuing tragedy that will unfold is people will leave the faith because of this. [01:12:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:12:40] Speaker C: Guaranteed. And one of the reasons is because they've been brainwashed, that independent fundamental Baptist churches have a corner on the truth, and they feel like they can't go anywhere else. And so they don't, you know, and again, you guys have talked about this long before I ever became a host on the RFP. But people have to know that there. There is truth out there, and there are churches and preachers who preach the truth, and there are alternatives to the legalistic mindset that they've. That they have been trained up in. [01:13:12] Speaker A: That's it. Well, fellas, thanks for being here with us on episode number 181, letter in the shot. My family just showed up and they're invading the room here. So we'll see you back next week on episode or next month on episode 182. Y'all have a good week. [01:13:30] Speaker B: Peace. [01:13:31] Speaker A: That. Is that your word? [01:13:32] Speaker C: Be sweet. [01:13:33] Speaker A: Awesome. [01:13:34] Speaker C: I'm just going to steal Brian's. [01:13:36] Speaker B: I just like that you do something different every week. I love that. Just like the rebel in you. You refuse. [01:13:43] Speaker C: I can't do it to come up with a word. [01:13:44] Speaker A: You guys, thanks for listening to the recovering fundamentalist podcast. Be sure to stop by our social media, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter give us a follow. Also, go to our website, recoveringfundamentalist.org. that's recoveringfundamentalist.org. there you can find recovering fundamentalist swag. You can get your t shirts and hats. You can join our ex fundy community, see where we're going to be having some meetups. It's the recoveringfundamentalist.org dot. Be sure to join us next time for the Recovering fundamentalist podcast. [01:14:18] Speaker C: Yeah, get it.