Episode #192 - Healthy Churches / What to look for & how to leave well.

[00:00:00] Speaker A: You are listening to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast, where faith and real life collide in a world full of noise, division and debate. [00:00:08] Speaker B: We're here to cut through the clutter. [00:00:10] Speaker A: With honest conversations, bold truth, and a. [00:00:13] Speaker B: Whole lot of grace. [00:00:15] Speaker A: Whether you're questioning, growing, or just trying. [00:00:17] Speaker B: To make sense of it all, you've. [00:00:19] Speaker A: Got a seat at the table. [00:00:21] Speaker B: Let's join JC Groves for today's episode. [00:00:24] Speaker A: Let's go. The Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast starts in three. [00:00:41] Speaker B: You know what makes women stupid is Colin, Jesus was not a bartender. [00:00:47] Speaker A: You have lost your mind. [00:00:50] Speaker B: Long tongue. [00:00:51] Speaker A: Heifers have given me a lot more trouble than heifers wearing britches. And you know that. Say amen right there. 1. [00:00:57] Speaker B: Let me tell you something, bozo. [00:00:58] Speaker A: They'll be selling Frosties in hell for this. [00:01:01] Speaker B: Boy puts on a pair of pink underwear. [00:01:04] Speaker A: I sucked my thumb till I was 14 years old. Welcome back to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast where we're breaking down the walls and not always tearing people down. If you've been hurt by the church or found yourself wondering what a healthy, grace filled, Jesus centered church actually looks like, this episode is for you. Too often we focus on calling out what is wrong. There's a time and a place for that. But today we want to flip the script and we're shining a light on what is right, what we should be looking for. What does a spiritually healthy church look like? How do we know if we're in one, if it's time to move on? And how do we do that as well? Because maybe you do need to leave. Well, how do you do it? Well, without bitterness, without burning bridges with grace. And joining us today is someone who lives out the pastorate every week. His name is Pastor Chris from up in Riverbank Church in Vermont. He's a church planner, a leader, a Miami Hurricane fan. That's okay. Someone who knows all about Jesus and his mission. Chris, welcome to the rfp, my friend. [00:02:03] Speaker B: It is an honor to be here. And you know, I just got to say it. Go canes. Go canes somewhere. Well, it's funny. Game day. Game days. You and I have like a thing going back and forth and, and this year was a very pleasant year for me. So I gotta, I gotta glow to one last time. [00:02:23] Speaker A: It's funny. I, I, I'm a glutton for punishment. I put a group chat together with a good friend of mine, a pastor here in North Georgia. His name's Paul Lasso. He pastors Brainerd Baptist and he is a huge Miami Hurricanes fan. And so I Put you and him, the two biggest Hurricane fans I know, in one group chat together. Y' all don't even know each other. And I'm like, I don't like these guys. I mean, there's a few times throughout the season I was like, especially this season. How. [00:02:48] Speaker B: Yeah, this is rough for you. [00:02:49] Speaker A: It was. Yeah. Oh, well. [00:02:51] Speaker B: Well, it's a new season. [00:02:53] Speaker A: It is a new season. Everybody's 0 and 0. [00:02:56] Speaker B: That's right. [00:02:56] Speaker A: You're also a Boston Celtics fan. [00:02:58] Speaker B: Yeah, man. And it's been a rough week. I'm not gonna lie about Tatum. [00:03:02] Speaker A: Is he out? [00:03:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I think he's. I think he's out, man. I'm sad about that, but I think it's fun to see what's next. So we'll see. He'll probably be out a year. I can imagine. A year. Achilles. [00:03:15] Speaker A: I have no idea. Anything about the NBA. Atlanta Hawks are all we have down here. [00:03:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:21] Speaker A: We don't watch basketball. [00:03:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I get it, man. Basketball's. It's like one of those sports that I think the NBA has lost a lot of people, so I. I kind of hung on. And up here in New England, man, like, we gotta have something. I gotta have one of the teams I cling to, and it can't be the Patriots, bro. No way. [00:03:39] Speaker A: You see that helmet? We're die hard Colts fans. [00:03:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:42] Speaker A: Patriots at all. Chris, I met you a few years ago. Of course, both of us have been speakers at the Word of Life island for many. And I'm pretty sure that's where I ran into you the first time a few years back and mutual friends there, and you missed it. You were supposed to go to the Duke game with Boobar and myself and a bunch of us, but you had prior obligations. That was a fun trip, man. You're gonna have to do that next time. [00:04:04] Speaker B: I know this would have been a good one, too, with Cooper out there. Oh, my gosh. You were at the game, too? Like the signature dunk game. [00:04:10] Speaker A: We saw the dunk. It was incredible. And then got to get down on the floor afterwards. What a trip. Well, Chris, introduce yourself to the rfp. Tell us who you are, what you do, how you started the church. [00:04:21] Speaker B: Yeah, so I. I'm actually a South Florida. I wouldn't say native. I was. I moved there when I was like, two years old from. I was born in Louisville, Kentucky, and my mom and dad flipped a coin and it was either West Palm Beach, Florida, or Tucson, Arizona. We ended up in West Palm Beach, Florida. That's where, as I grew up I gave my life to Jesus after my dad came to Faith, my mom came to Faith, my sister came to Faith, and it was just like the domino effect. We grew up in a pretty conservative. As you are familiar with Conservative Baptist Church, I'm grateful for that foundation. So we, we grew up there. Ended up when I was maybe 11 years old, we moved to New Hampshire because my mom is from New Hampshire. And so we moved up here. And that was a horrible experience for me initially because if, you know, there's this whole, this New England kind of Persona, almost like a. It's almost like a. A reputation that New Englanders have. And I lived that out when we moved here because people were brutal, man bullied, all that stuff. And you just get thick skin. I hated it. Eventually moved back to West Palm beach when I was in high school. And I said, I will never go back to New England. And you know those things, never say never. And it was in 2009. This is super cool, JC and in 2009, I just had like. You ever had like a season in your life where you're just. It's like a holy discontent. It's like something. I know you've been there because we. A couple years ago, you and I talked. Yeah. And I was just going through this holy discontent. There's something not right and so about. I was actually serving on a great church staff in South Florida at the time. And we did a staff three day prayer and fast. And on the second day of that prayer and fast, the Holy Spirit really spoke to me clearly and said, I want you to move to Vermont and start a church. And I know it sounds crazy. You're like, chris, you had a bad burger or bad pizza. I'm like, I'm fasting. I didn't have anything bad. It was, it was a very divine, genuine moment. And that was in October of 2009. And we moved here in January of 2010. So do the math. Three months later we were here and we. We moved into our apartment. A week later we started meeting in our living room with a group of about eight or nine people that I just pulled from around the community. And we started meeting and I just started casting Vision for a different kind of church. A church that would. Would reach people for Jesus. And it was funny in that we call our launch team. Like, four of the nine didn't know Jesus. They were just like, I just want to be a part of their board, you know? [00:07:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:00] Speaker B: And so, yeah, that was in January 2010. We launched publicly in April of 2010. And as you know, New England is not known for being a church friendly environment. We had a, I mean, God showed up along the way. J.C. initially, he has every step of the way, all 15 years. But in that early season it was if it seemed miraculous as the doors would open and God would just open doors. And we, we launched our church with 179 people in April of 2010. And we haven't looked back since, man. We've just been, we say we're on a rescue mission, helping people take their next step with Jesus. We're a multi site church, Multi church. So we're in Vermont and New Hampshire and we're just living, I always say we're walking on water, man. We're living the miracle every day. I, I can't believe I get to do this. And I can't believe God would use a guy like me, a beach bum from South Florida, to come up here to the Ivy League. We're in the Dartmouth College region. And to come here and be used by God in this highly academic, cynical environment, I, I just humbled, man. I can't believe it. It doesn't make sense. [00:08:05] Speaker A: Well, Chris, watching as an outsider watching God use you in the church, I love following along with the journey. I've never been there. I'm hoping to get there someday. But just sitting back and watching God use you, it's a blessing to me. And you know, as a new church planner, I feel what you just went through back in 2009. You know, I think sometimes when God says jump, you don't say why, you say how high. [00:08:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:28] Speaker A: You know, it's amazing when we take that step of faith, how he just runs with that and what he does. And you know, I, I feel my own story here with Hope Church. I mean, August of 22nd, moving back here, I shared my story a few episodes ago, But August of 22nd, moving back here, not wanting to plant a church in all honesty, but knowing that there was a need in this community because unlike Vermont, well actually like Vermont, we're just very Bible saturated down here. No word church saturated. You know, they don't really know the Bible where up there they just say, no. It's very similar in, in with the culture here in South Georgia. In North Georgia, actually. It's, it's so churched and I was like, the last thing we need is another church. But what we needed is the same thing you just said. Real community that love Jesus, love the word, love the gospel, and we'll live that out. And you know, I think that's what I think. That's what this, this country, this world needs are healthy churches. Healthy churches. And I just want to get this stigma out of the way because I know some of the people will listen to this are like, oh, they're just going to say if their church is big, it's healthy. That is not what we're saying. I mean, there's some churches that are running 15, 20, 35, 40 people that are very healthy. Merricks give off a false sense of hope. Healthy things grow. But I think when you hear this, don't just hear big church is healthy. And so I don't want, I want to just take that off the table right off the bat, because some of you listening to this, I know we have lots of pastors that listen to this podcast that run 50, 100 people. And I don't want you to feel discouraged. I talked to a guy this morning that said, we planted a church two years ago. We're running faithfully 50 people, but it just doesn't feel like we're growing. I said, bro, you're pouring into those 50 people. I said, don't buy into the lie that numerical growth is healthy. You're discipling the 50, and that's where God wants you. So be faithful there. So, Chris, that being said, this whole topic, episode 192 Church Health what to look for. Help us start by painting this picture of a healthy church. What are some key characteristics that our listeners should look for when looking for a healthy church? [00:10:38] Speaker B: Sure. [00:10:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:39] Speaker B: I would start with. I know, especially in the current climate, JC it seems to me, and you know, the statistics and you know, all of the. There's been a lot of Barna studies that have been recently released about the young generation is really seeking. Right? And I think, first of all, and I think it's going to be high value scripture. So if you're looking for a church, look for a church's values, the Bible, man. Like not values somebody's opinion, not values, a political agenda, not values. Maybe a theological kind of construct, like a high value of scripture, the source of the truth. And watch this. This is key. I think you got to value the source of the truth even when it hurts, even when it stings, right? So look for a church that values the Bible. And one thing that I believe we've really, over the last probably seven or eight years, have really made an effort to do is to make sure the Bible is visible. Even when I preach, if you ever see a video, I always have a Bible in my hand. The only reason I do that, first of all, I do value the Bible. It' my. It is our source of truth. But I want people to know that I'm. I'm subject to this, too. Not just you. I'm not just taking this. Give it to you as me. And so I think a church should value scripture. If you're looking for one, look for a church that has a high value of scripture. [00:11:59] Speaker A: You know, I think. I think that's an important, important step right there. And I had this conversation the other day. I got a group of pastors, Joseph, Patrick, Paul, we get together. It's a group of four of us. We call it the KATUSA Collaborative. Just young pastors. We're growing here, and we talk a lot. We meet every week. And I got a group chat going. And I said, guys, do you think it's important that a pastor has a Bible with him when he steps up to the. To the stage, to the pulpit? All of us do that. And, you know, I'm seeing this trend where it's more of like a TED Talk, in a way. [00:12:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Now, the culture. I grew up in this. A lot of our listeners are. I mean, we're bow. We're. We're browbeat, if you will, with the King James version Bible, like, you didn't step up there. But I purposely am realizing that I need to draw people's attention to the Bible. I open up every sermon, take your Bibles and open, because I want people to have. There's something about a leather ink paper in your hand that you can read from, and that's helping them get out. We put a little thing out here at Hope Church. I love this a few months ago and said, hey, I preach from the new living translation. It's the version that I read, I study, I preach from. Would you like your own copy? We had like 60 people like, I'll take one. I'll take one. I'll take one. This is our church folk, you know? Yeah, they got their phone. That's great. There's on the screen. That's great. But there's something about having it in their hand. I want you to break that down just a little bit, Chris. When you say values the Bible, I think a lot of people think if I go chapter by chapter, verse by verse, I'm diving into the Bible. But I think it's more than just the duty of reading the Bible, of loving the Bible. [00:13:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:36] Speaker A: What do you mean when you say values the Scripture? Yeah. [00:13:39] Speaker B: I think it's about saying, this is my Foundation. And this is actually my absolute authority of truth. Right? So the world we live in, there's a lot of you. You hear, this is my truth. Or I have my truth. Or, you know, there's a lot of. There's a lot of good resources, too. A lot of good. Good. I have on my, on my desk behind me a couple of really good books about the Bible or I have really good magazines about the Bible. I was like, just reading an archaeological magazine. I'm a total nerd, right? Like, they're good, but I go to the Word as my source because I know it never changes. And I think it's, It's a beautiful thing that we have access to the word of God and not, not to beat people overhead with it, which is so crucial because that's not the intention of it. Intention is to be. I remember one of my mentors said, chris, it's just like this is years and years and years ago. And it stuck with me. And it's so simple, but it really. I use it all the time, especially with newer believers. It's like, it's, it's my, it's my instruction manual. And so I have an instruction manual. It's my source of truth. And so I think it's a really important thing. I have a second. I, I wrote down a couple because you asked me. [00:14:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:47] Speaker B: So I got a second thing that I think is important if you're looking for a church, not just the high value. Scripture number two is a high value of Jesus rescue. And listen, man, if there's anything. I tell people this all the time. I'm like, if you, if you can't preach the good news of Jesus with the bad news, like, we don't. I always leave with the bad news because you can have good news without the bad news. But I don't dwell on the bad news. I dwell on the good news because that's, that's our message, right? Paul said, woe to me if I do not preach the good news. And so I think if you're looking for a church, look for a church that values the declared gospel. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's something special. Special. I get excited even now, jc Thinking about the, the fact that Jesus lived. I just went to Israel, bro. And to walk. Yeah, right. I've never been. And I go there and I got just a whole new lens, a whole new take. And I, I think about Jesus lived. He really lived, and that he never sinned and that he died on the cross. And I, I Saw where that cross was and, and then he died and he resurrected. Like that's the good news. [00:15:55] Speaker A: And so life changing. [00:15:56] Speaker B: Gosh, yeah. Like there should be such a high value of Jesus rescue to declare gospel in our churches. If you're looking for one, make sure you're, you're checking that out. And look, some, some guys are. I'm highly evangelistic and I know that's not everybody. I know there's some that aren't. And I have good friends who maybe are more. Maybe they're the gift of teaching. And I'm more of like a preacher, I guess. I don't even know what I am. I'm a beach bum that just preaches the good news. I don't know. But if, if there's a high value of Jesus rescue, you'll know it, man. You'll know it. So look for that. That's such an important thing. [00:16:35] Speaker A: You know, I think, I think what you're hitting on is very important. It's got to be rooted in the gospel because that, that, you know. And too many times though, what happens, I think in churches in general, and you said you'll know it, the gospel is the starting point. Like the gospel is what is used to get you saved. And then it's like, okay, now just do church. But the gospel is what sustains us. The gospel is what carries us on. The gospel is not just to get us in, it's what carries us home. And so when you're rooted in the gospel, you know, I've watched your sermons. I try to. Every message I preach, it comes back to the gospel. The good news of the gospel. I think it was Tim Keller that did years ago. The gospel in every chapter, the gospel in every verse. And how every, you know, it always comes back to the good news of the gospel. That's, that's huge. High value of scripture rooted in the gospel. You got another one written down? [00:17:24] Speaker B: Yeah. So the third, the third thing is have a look for a church as not just a high value scripture, a high value of Jesus rescue, but thirdly, a high value of people. Yeah, a high value of people. And this is, this is so crucial, man. And you're like, well, what does it mean to have a high value of people? Or you mean a lot of people in the room? No, no, I love what you said, jc, about the small church, the big. It doesn't matter. I was just at one of the most beautiful expressions of the local church up on the Canadian line here in Vermont, middle of nowhere, church of about 7, 500 people, gorgeous church of people. Just a beautiful expression. And I would say they are just as valuable. They're not, they're just as, they're just as equal to our church. Right. There's a high value people. And you look at a church and you're looking for a church, you got, you want to see that the church, the, the, the, the, the organism values people. And there's what I mean by that. There's a, there's a sense that you err on the side of grace and love. That's how you value people. [00:18:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:30] Speaker B: You know what I'm saying? Like I have people. I had somebody asked me this two weeks ago and it's happened occasionally throughout our history as a church over the last 15 years. And it typically comes from someone in a different, you know, I guess you say part of our family, right. Our Christian family. It's like, what do you do about church discipline? And I'm like, what an interesting question. You know, I, I first of all err on the side of grace. I really do because I value people and I want not. Does it mean, you know, we have a lower, a low value of the bad news? Like we do, like we have, we value that the bad news is, I mean, you gotta have bad news if there's gonna be good news. But dude, I don't dwell, I want to err on the side of grace with people and the air on the side of love with people. So that when someone is trapped in sin and someone is kind of caught in a jacked up lifestyle, I'm not thumping them and I'm not kicking them out, but I'm errand on the side of grace to help point them to the cross, point them to the empty tomb, point them to relationship. You got to have a high value people who had the highest value of people of anybody ever. Jesus, man on the cross, like that's the greatest value, you know. So I think if you're looking for a church, man, look for a church that has a high value of people. [00:19:46] Speaker A: And I think along those lines, it's not just transactional community. There may be a church that has a high value of you because of what you can give to them, if you can bless them, if you can serve them, you know, just taking it from the other side of that, you know. [00:20:02] Speaker B: That's right. [00:20:03] Speaker A: We can lean into this transactional community where I'm growing and it, yes, they love people, but when I, when they get everything they can out of me, it's kind of like moving on, you know? That's one of the reasons we don't do first time guest gifts. One, because we're a church plant, we can't afford it. But two, I'm like, what about the second, the third, the fourth time a tender. We want them to feel just as welcomed as the first time they walk in into the door. And I think the goal there is intentional community. It's learning and growing, that there is community where people are loved unconditionally, just as Jesus loved them. And we learn and we grow. You know, I think it's community where it's more than just a transactional friendship, transactional community where once they get all they can get out of you, they're kind of done with you. And I think, you know, we've got to lean into more like that where people are loved unconditionally just as Jesus loved us. And, you know, I think when we were starting Hope Church, I was going down to the coffee shop and seeing people on Sundays. I didn't go to church for a couple months, just went down to the coffee shop and it was packed on Sunday. And as a pastor, you're like, what. What are we doing that these people aren't in a church? You know? And then what I realized is it didn't matter what you look like, what you sounded like, like, what you talk like, what you, what you ordered. We're like this weird collective group sitting in a coffee shop. And I was like, this isn't. This is community on a different level. And I was like, you could do intentional community. And so that's been our goal from the beginning. And I think what you hit on is so important. It's got to be that, that family dynamic there. You know, we're a family following the way of Jesus. [00:21:37] Speaker B: That's right. [00:21:38] Speaker A: That's something that we have to do. [00:21:39] Speaker B: And it's messy, bro. It's messy. Right? That. That's what, like, when you value people, you're okay with the messes. And, and I think there's. There's some people that are really uncomfortable with that in the church. They want a church that is. I. Can I share a story real quick? [00:21:54] Speaker A: Please do I. [00:21:55] Speaker B: Okay. So we, we. We reach a lot of people maybe on the fringes in our context. It's a really unique context. We're close to Dartmouth College and Ivy League School, but we're also in the mountains, and we're not a whole lot different than the mountains of the South Appalachia. You know, you have a pretty diverse group of people, you know, socioeconomical but in the mountains, it is, it is a lower, you know, on the socioeconomical scale. And we reach a lot of the French people. And there's one time we had a guy come to our church one time and he didn't come back. And I met with him and I just like to follow up. And he says, yeah, I can't go to your church because I work with. He works in the mental health part of the hospital and specifically with those who are dealing with their, their drug addictions. And he says, I saw too many people that I, I work with in that space and I can't go to church with people like that. And I was like, dude, like, we've got to err on the side of grace and love, because I want to reach those people. I want to help them. They're broken, hurting. They need Jesus. Yes. But they need to form through that. And it's a law. It's long game, right. Eugene Peterson, you know, we've got to have that. It's all about obedience in the same direction and just long moving in the same direction. And so all that to say is a high value. People can be really, really, really hard for, for some people. And so if you're looking for a church, make sure you're looking for a church that has a high value of people. And then lastly, I got one more, a high value of transparency. And so if you're looking for a church, look for a church. That community. There's communication and clarity all the time. I think that's something that we've modeled and done really well here. And I'll be honest, it's tough because you just want to move on. Sometimes you just want to keep going. But we've always been very communication oriented about things going on. If there were maybe some micro crises in the church, there's never been hidden agendas. If you have a question, you can ask it. People have asked anything you can imagine. And it's just be honest, be transparent. So look for a church. If you're looking right now, look for a church that's transparent. Like, it's okay. Now, there's a difference between questions and questioning. Right. You know, because questions are curious and I think curiosity and transparency go together. Right. But it, I would challenge the person maybe who's listening right now, who's always hopping church to church to church. Maybe, just maybe you're. They're not the problem. Maybe you are. And maybe you got to come back to the place of saying, you know, maybe I need to be just more Curious and less discussion. Suspicious. [00:24:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:46] Speaker B: Do you know what I mean? And, and it's okay, like go to a church, you're looking for one. Look for a church that's transparent and match your curiosity, that transparency, not your challenge and not your suspicion because there's nothing perfect. And that, that kind of will be another part of this conversation. But I think transparency is important. [00:25:04] Speaker A: JC and you know, Chris, to be honest with you, the. The community of people that we're talking to, majority of the them come from a place where that word is a cuss word, transparency. In fundamental, independent Fundamental Baptist churches specifically, there is no transparency. It's the man of God, his word. He is his ultimate authority. He is his accountability. You don't question, you do what they say. And there's so many people I know that are listening right now that that is the, the place that they have found themselves in. You know, we err on the side of the uber transparency. [00:25:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Gay man. Yeah. [00:25:40] Speaker A: Because I mean, what is it going to hurt? I would rather just nip things in the bud and just be rumbles underneath. And I think what that does is it sets up vibrant worship. When you are transparent, it sets up worship not just how we sing, but worship in community. In the gospel, in scripture, we're worshiping the God that we're coming together and following his way. And that lifts up Jesus. It invites everyone into his presence. Community, discipleship, you know, where people are growing in their faith. We're walking together through life's challenges. Transparency, accountability are crucial in fostering an environment where honesty and grace go hand in hand. And I think that's a great point, Chris. [00:26:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Transparency, I think is super undervalued or overlooked. And I think it's crucial here. Here's the thing. I was talking to someone a couple days ago and little trick, you know, you get pastors get together, coffee. We were talking about our roles and I think there's, there's been in the past, and I would say modern American church, the pastor is more of a king. You just spoke of that. Right. And we were like, I'd rather be more of a prophet or a priest. I'm not a king. A prophet is transparent. A prophet tells the truth. A priest is transparent. A priest tells the truth. But a king. A king can hide away. Right. And so I think if you're a pastor, even maybe this is a separate conversation. But pastors, you're not a king. Yeah, there's only one king. His name is King Jesus. We're prophets and priests. That's Right. We're prophets and priests and. [00:27:29] Speaker A: Well, that sets us up. Into this next topic that I want to talk about. I put down. How does the leadership role play. What role does leadership play in creating healthy churches? I mean, leadership is pivotal. The president, the founder of the university I went to, to Tennessee Temple, Lee Robertson has a famous quote. Everything rises and falls on leadership. So what do you feel? Does the role of leadership play in shaping healthy churches? [00:27:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say, as I was thinking about this question, you answered one of my mentors, Gordon McDonald. He's 86 years old. I don't know if you know who Gordon is, but he's kind of a church legend and so thankful to have a relationship with him. And I'm just gonna. I would take credit for us, but I can't. It's my mentor. So I'm going to share with you something he's taught me, and I'll just pass on. These are so important. This. To answer this question. What. How does leadership play a role in shaping out the church? Number one, I think it plays a role with humility. Gordon talks about this whole idea of leading with humility is really. It's part of coming out of your soul like who you are. [00:28:41] Speaker A: The. [00:28:41] Speaker B: It's the seed of who you are. And if you are healthy internally, okay, you're going to have genuine humility. And he talks about this virtue of harvested humility. Humility is not something one achieves. It's the result of other pursuits in your faith. It's. It comes from your soul. And so I, number one, I would say humility. And as Gordon calls it, like you're harvesting humility. It's something that you're. You're treading faithfully, walking with the Lord, and you're. You're harvesting humility. And the closer you get to the Lord as a leader, the more humble you're going to become because you're going to realize, I'm not the king. I'm a prophet, I'm a priest, but I am not the king. There's only one king. It's King Jesus. And so, number two, you want me just kind of go through these and. [00:29:30] Speaker A: Then we can kind of. [00:29:31] Speaker B: Okay. Number two, Gordon says if. If you're going to have a healthy soul and you're going to lead from a healthy soul, and you're going to be a healthy leader, you have to have compassion. You can't not have compassion and be a leader. [00:29:47] Speaker A: You. [00:29:47] Speaker B: You have to have compassion. And I'll just be real kind of vulnerable with you. I'M not a naturally compassionate guy. I'm just not. And something that my, my mentor Gordon has really sharpened me with is this productive compassion, meaning you have as a follower of Jesus and one who leads in the church, you don't want to be perceived as a hard person. Sure, if you're perceived as a hard person and someone who occasionally does good deeds, you're not going to lead. Well, but if you're someone who's been softened by the spirit of God, you've got a healthy soul, there's going to be compassion that genuinely comes from your soul. And that is a really key component to leading in a healthy manner and being a healthy leader of a healthy church. Number three. Gordon says the third virtue to cultivate a healthy leader soul as you lead your church is steadfastness. And I love what he says here. He says it's steadfastness, not stubbornness. He talks about this whole idea. Steadfastness means to be re. Have a reliable character, to have a fulfillment of promises. There's a sense that you're dependable, that there's a faithfulness to key relationships, and most importantly, that you live in obedience to Jesus. There's a steadfastness about you. You're leading from a healthy soul because you have a steadfastness of faith. Faith. You have a steadfastness of character, you have a steadfastness of faithfulness and key relationships. Yeah, this I'll tell you, man, when you, when you're able to learn from these sages, causes you to reflect upon your own. Like for me, as I learned from Gordon, I have to look in my own soul and say, how healthy of a leader am I? And I would say that, you know, the compassion piece is a big part of steadfastness. That, that kind of sense of really leaning in. And then he says this, healthy leaders on the inside. You, if you're cultivating the soul, you're cultivating a faith that's it's not just a stagnant faith, but it's a faith beyond sight. And I know you're probably this way, JC Visionary, right? And I think the healthier you are as a leader in, say you're looking for a healthy church, a healthy leader will have vision. Not his vision, not something that's self serving, but it's a faith beyond sight. That Gordon calls it the ability to trust and draw upon the power of God beyond my own rationality, beyond my own instinctive pessimism, and beyond my willingness to settle for the less than the best it's about me because I had this one. Another one of my mentors says calls it routine faithfulness. Right? And so there's a sense of like, I'm so walking with the Lord that I have a calmness, I have a quietness. I am believing that God will provide for the needs of this church. And then I'm believing that he's going to give me clarity for our direction. That's what a healthy leader looks like. Because your, your soul is healthy, you're leading from that. And out of that is this faith beyond sight. You're able to see and guide your church to the future. And then lastly, he says this Gordon, when he talks about healthy leaders, he says the fifth virtue that a healthy leader cultivates is self control. Self control. Now this is a big one, right? Self control is, Gordon says that play when a leader is opposed, when a leader is slandered, when a leader is unappreciated. Pastor, how do you respond? Okay, if you're a healthy leader, when someone opposes you, slanders you, ignores you, we're required to go the second mile. That's self control. That's what Gordon says. That's challenging to me, but that's what a healthy leader looks like. A healthy leader has humility, is cultivating that, has compassion, is cultivating that. Not that it's ever perfect and it never will be. Right. I don't, I, I mean, I don't think we're ever going to be to the point like, oh, I've, I've reached the point of perfection, of right steadfastness. No, no, no. It's cultivating. And that's the key word in this is. I love that. My friend Gordon says it's like Chris is cultivating it, it's not achieving it. [00:34:23] Speaker A: That's good. But I love what he just put down there. And you know, I kind of listed out some things thinking about this that are very similar to what Gordon put down. But you know, they go right, right hand in hand with that. The first one I would say would be that a leader models humility. It is servant hearted, following Jesus example. Too many times we have leaders and it goes back to what you said. They have that king mentality. There's no humility there. There's no servant. They come out, they preach, they leave. And they're not really following Jesus example. He was the lead servant. I love that right there. Number two is that they prioritize spiritual growth and unity among the congregation. It's not just numerically, it's spiritually, it's emotionally, it's mentally, it's. It's growing to become more like Jesus. They lead with integrity and authenticity. I think that is a huge one. There is to be the same publicly, personally, and privately. I mean, yeah, that's one of the. I mean, my goodness, Chris, we. We see it every day. Pastors getting out of the ministry because of a decision. You know, we're all. [00:35:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:25] Speaker A: Away from stupid. But, man, it's like every day somebody is falling and somebody is getting out. Where you guys. [00:35:31] Speaker B: I heard it put this way recently. We're all one decision away from a Dateline episode. Yes, I saw one yesterday. [00:35:41] Speaker A: Oh, you have no idea how true that is in my life. My former youth pastor was on 2020. Literally. Yeah, he was my youth pastor all through high school. Ended up moving to Independence, Missouri, had an affair, murdered her husband, got arrested. He actually. He actually just got X'd in prison back in March. And crazy. That was my youth pastor. There you go. Was a 2020. But, you know, that's the real thing. Here's one thing that drives me absolutely insane when. When it comes to leadership, they put on this Persona, this character almost, if you will, in the pulpit, on the stage. But then when you see them at the golf course or at lunch or at the Mexican restaurant or in the sporting goods store, they're a totally different person. And I'm like, just be the same. And I strive for that. Who you get on this podcast is who I am standing on that stage, who I will be on the golf course, be the same publicly, personally, and privately. And I think that goes back, honestly, to what you hit on. I've never heard that. The king mentality. That really goes back to that. We have to give off this Persona of we've got it under control. Like, we've got this all figured out. We had a gentleman on this podcast years ago. I'm not going to mention his name because we've given him enough airtime, but we literally turned the recording off. And it's like he changed when we hit record, he went into, like, a WWE character almost, in a way. And I was like. And then I asked him, because we hit. We hit in. We stopped recording, and he was just a normal dude. And I said, man, is it exhausting having to be this character, this. This person that you have created, what everybody thinks about you? Because I kind of like who you are when the recording is off. And he's like, it is what it is. That's exactly what he said. It is what it is, I'm like, that's not authentic. That's not integrity. In all honesty, you know, I think leaning on the last one I wrote down is that they're listeners and learners. We're sensitive to the Holy Spirit's guidance, and we in the need of community. We listen. I don't know how many pastors I have seen in my life that hear you, but they don't listen to you. They're always looking for that next conversation. They're always hearing what you're saying. And, bro, I struggle with this one. I'm not gonna lie. I. I'm. I'm a uber extrovert. I'm an extrovert, extrovert, introvert. I get to a certain point, I'm like, I want to go hide in my office, but I make myself. I feel like I want to see everybody that's walking in. Not to judge who's coming, but I want. I really want to hear their story. And I text a guy. We have a young man by the name of Josh that's been here a couple weeks. They just lost their baby at 8 months old. She had to deliver. Stillborn. And they're. They're back three weeks. He's not saved. We're walking through this together. And Sunday, he. He comes up right at the end of service. It's Mother's Day. We're standing by the front door. People are leaving, giving me fist bumps, shaking my hands. We're having a conversation, and then I get home and tell me if you've ever done this. I lay down for my nap, and I'm like, oh, my goodness. I don't think I ended that conversation. I just walked away. And so I text Josh, bro, did we finish our conversation? I feel so bad. I heard you, and I honestly have no idea what we were talking about. He's like, come here. We're good. And I was like, I feel like the biggest idiot. And that happens. Somebody else will take my attention away. [00:38:51] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:38:52] Speaker A: Like, I want to. I want to really focus in on who that person is. And I think what that does, Chris, is that goes back to that, what you just talked about, that hardness that. That approachable spirit. I think that all comes with the humility that's there, you know, Chris, you lead Riverbank Church in Vermont, a very difficult place to lead. It's not the buckle of the Bible belt like I am here. Your church is known for strong community, for outreach. How have you seen these principles played out in your own ministry? [00:39:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's A lot of it isn't just theory at all. I think for us it's, I mean when I talk about a high value scripture, it's a conversation we have. So for example, when I, when I prepare a message, I, I try to prepare. I have a preaching calendar and I'm super diligent to make sure that I'm committed to the scripture and I teach it. Watch this. This is like might be one of the craziest things we do, but we embody this whole idea of transparency. And the high value scripture is I, I preach it two weeks in advance to a team of people we call our preaching team. And I have a hand select people group of people, young leaders, like people that can. And I've given permission to feedback and I think what they're doing is they know like hey, this, the value is not in my words, it's in the scripture. And I want, I want to get feedback from you. And I, I'm, I'm open to feedback. It's transparency. So we, we model it that way practically. I think the high value of Jesus rescue we. Dude, if you were ever here for any of our. Anything we do every. It bleeds out of everybody in our church. We are all about the, we are all about the rescue mission. That's actually our, our, our, our statement. We are on a rescue mission, helping people take their next step with Jesus and we bleed it and then the high value of people. I'll just give you a quick example of this. So this past Sunday we have in our one location we have three what we call worship experiences. And in the 8am I was at the end of our. I'm old school dude, but I preach the gospel and call to response and people get come forward every week. It's a cool thing. It's kind of our culture. And I'm in the middle of sharing the gospel and I get to the. I'm in the bad news. I'm like, you know, we're all sinners. You know, we're all gonna die and without being made right by Jesus, we'll go to hell. And it wasn't when I said that someone in the room fell and I heard a crack and a scream and I, I had. So I'm gonna go to the value of people in this is inside of me. There was this tension inside of me. JC I was like, I've got to finish the gospel because that's the most important thing. And the Holy Spirit just subtly shifted my heart and said no, that woman who just fell is the Most important thing. And I just stopped right where I was. And I'm just being real. My flesh was like, how dare this person interrupt the gospel that I'm preaching? And the spirit said, how dare you not be concerned with that woman? And it was like it happened in a microsecond, you know, And I stopped and I. This woman, she's moaning and everybody can hear it. She fell and broke her hip in church. [00:42:30] Speaker A: My goodness. [00:42:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And I just stopped and I said, guys, we. We gotta. We gotta pray for our friend. And I prayed for her and I said, you know what? We're ending right now, and we're just gonna pray for our friend who's. Who's. Who's hurt, but we're gonna have the authorities come in. And. And I just invited everybody to leave. And we. It was only the spirit of God, because JC My flesh was like, I have a high value of the rescue. I have a high value of the scripture. But transparency is. I was kind of conflicted in that moment. And I want. And guess what? Out of that, I believe just showing the high value of that woman who. Who fell in the middle of a message that nobody was going to hear from that point on anyway. It would have been a formality. [00:43:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:18] Speaker B: So I think I. We modeled that even this past weekend. And it was only because the Holy Spirit, not because. I'm telling you, my. My flesh was like, how dare you fall in the middle of my gospel. [00:43:31] Speaker A: You know, Chris, as I'm hearing you say that, I think it's important to say that this doesn't just happen in church on a Sunday morning. Church is not just a gathering for a couple hours on Sunday morning. We are the church. We're living this out. And I love what you said. It oozes out of us. It's every part of us. And, you know, I think where this goes back to the pastor being the same publicly, personally, privately. We never know who we're ministering to, not just from the stage. [00:44:01] Speaker B: That's right. [00:44:01] Speaker A: Leadership in public. Let me give you a crazy story that happened to us just a few weeks ago. We were in Cracker Barrel on a Monday morning. There's a guy that used to be. He was boat captain up at the island with me, Jacob Kessling. He was on the podcast a few weeks ago, and right before we recorded that episode, we're sitting in Cracker Barrel, and we see this lady physically in pain. We could tell it wasn't right. We walked over, prayed for her. She said, I'm supposed to have spinal Surgery. Just got out of the car for a 13 hour drive. My grandson passed away yesterday. We're here to bear him. Prayed for, we left, didn't think anything about it. Fast forward Palm Sunday. The next Sunday I get up to preach and this young couple sitting back in the back and I see them kind of talking because they're, you know, we, we kind of have our places that we look when we're preaching kind of thing. And I just kept seeing them and they were like pointing at me and looking and they come up as soon as the service was, was over, said, hey, did y' all pray for a lady in Cracker Barrel? It's like, yeah. She goes, that was my mom. [00:45:01] Speaker B: Wow. [00:45:02] Speaker A: She said, this is our first Sunday here. We've been invited here. And when you stood up, we're like, that's one of the people that was praying for my mom from Texas. [00:45:11] Speaker B: Wow. [00:45:11] Speaker A: I said, forgive me, but she said she was here for a funeral who passed. And she said, that was my 8 month old baby that, that I was telling you about earlier. And that's this family. You know, if we just turn it on when we're in the pulpit, when we're on the stage, this is a calling lifelong. And you know, that love for people beyond just what happens in the context of a Sunday morning service. [00:45:34] Speaker B: That's right. [00:45:35] Speaker A: Got to be something that oozes out of us. I love that wording that you use. There's a pastor in Salt Lake City, Utah, where I worked for a while. His name was Mike Gray. He's like, we gotta allow the love of Jesus to slosh on everybody around us. And he used the saucer and I would slosh her. I've never forgot that illustration. Yeah, that's good. Well, Chris, as we're, as we're wrapping up, I want us to go into this segment that kind of pivots a little bit because I feel like there's some people that are listening to this podcast who are comfortable because it's where they've always been. There's some that I know because I talk to these people on a weekly basis. They're comfortable questioning where they're at and they're wondering if they should move. How do they know it's time to move on the characteristics that we've listed out today, if that was a checklist, none of them are checking out. And I know that's going to happen. I want to address a sensitive topic here, but. Yeah, how to leave a church. Well, what advice do you have for someone considering leaving their Church. [00:46:34] Speaker B: Yeah. This is a tricky one, right, Because I do believe that there's a segment of our western culture that we've created of leaving church. It's almost like fast food, you know, and so there's a segment, right? There's a segment of it that's that, but then there's a segment that are feel trapped in a church. That's not healthy. [00:46:58] Speaker A: Yep. [00:46:58] Speaker B: Right. And so let's speak to that segment that, the segment that maybe you're listening right now. You're like, man, I just feel true trapped. This church is not healthy. You're talking about, you know, of high value scripture and they don't. And there's a high value of Jesus and there's no high value of the rescue or there's no high value of people or no high value of transparency. You feel trapped. And I, let me just speak to that. And I would say that there's a couple little things that, that maybe we can unpack. First of all, it's okay to start praying about your next step. It's okay to start praying about that. If you feel trapped, if you feel like maybe here's another element of it. Maybe there's just, you're in the church that you're, you're holistically, maybe you're the children and your family aren't being ministered to. Maybe there's your students, you know, there's, they're not able to minister to and you're just feeling the conflict there. It's okay to start praying about what that next step looks like. And so I would say this, number one, communicate it. [00:48:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:07] Speaker B: If you're, if you're praying about it right now, you're communicating it to Jesus. And number two, maybe you and your spouse, if you're married, you communicate that together. Like, hey, are we, are we feeling stuck here? Are we feeling trapped here? Is this not that healthy of a church for us? Are we, is there, we're not holistically being, you know, ministered to as a family. Maybe we are as adults, but our kids are. And there's. They're being stuck and sitting inside the auditorium, etc. Etc. I would say communication is a very important part of this. So you're communicating with God, you're communicating with each other. And then here's the big hardest part. And this is what typically happens, JC as people just, they just the ghost. And as a pastor, as a pastor, that might be one of the hardest things is when people ghost you. And I would say don't ghost your church even Maybe it isn't as healthy as you think it. It should be. Don't ghost. I would communicate and. And leave. Well, leave in a way that honors. Leave in a way that loves. Leave in a way that Jesus, possibly. I don't think Jesus would be hopping churches, but I don't. [00:49:20] Speaker A: But. [00:49:20] Speaker B: But if Jesus did get released from one church to another, I would say leave in a way Jesus would leave with honor, leave with dignity. We talked about humility earlier, right, When Gordon was talking about this whole idea of cultivating humility. That applies not just to the leaders. If you're going to lead, lead with humility. It also, it's. I think it's every believer. We want to be humble. We want to be dignified. You know, dignity includes the people leaving. But I also think it includes, if you're a pastor, listen, and someone is feeling released and they have the courage enough to come and talk to you, release them in love and dignity. I just heard a story of a pastor in church that I know well, and it's just ugly how some people are on staff were released, and it just creates a confusing. It doesn't honor Jesus. And so it's not humble. And I would say if we can, if we're a past church where people are feeling released from, it's okay. It's okay. Because I think we can model this. Right? But the truth is we have to want to model, right? And so speaking to those who maybe feel trapped or feeling like God's moving them on and it's not because of a job move 150 miles away, but it's more like maybe there's like a. You know, the holy discontent I spoke of earlier. Remember that? J.C. i talked. Maybe you're having a holy discontent in your life right now. You're listening. It's okay. Yeah, it's okay. And start praying about it. Start talking about it. Do it with dignity. Do it with clarity. Don't ghost. And if you're a pastor, be. Be dignified. Be humble. Release with release, with love. If we do this right, the world sees it and wants what we have. [00:51:22] Speaker A: That's it. I think you hit the nail on the head. I think leaving a church, it's a. It's approached with prayer and discernment. [00:51:30] Speaker B: It. [00:51:30] Speaker A: I think this is one I want to add here, is don't talk about the problems that you perceive. Ask questions and get answers. Because a lot of times what happens, especially in some church cultures, is you will find the right people that are discontent with the same thing you are. And you build these. These cases and then you just leave. And it's this whole list of things that you've put out there that aren't really true. If you would have just had some conversations, you know, I think that's an important thing to do. It's important to communicate respectively and honestly with church leadership, sharing your reasons for leaving without causing division. And I know as a pastor and you as a pastor, we. We want that. I would much rather have somebody come in and say, hey, here's some of the reasons that we're going to be stepping aside more than when they ghost you, bro. You ain't got a clue why they're lying. Is my haircut. I mean, we're got some beautiful bald heads here because I wear Nikes. Is it because, you know, I wear camo shirts? Like, what? What is it? You know, is it. I use a new living trans. When they ghost, you wonder. And that's one of the worst places for pastors to be. It really is, I think. Leave with gratitude for what you've received while you were here, recognizing that God may be leading you elsewhere for growth or for other ministry opportunities. Opportunities. But leave gratitude and always maintain a spirit of love and unity. Remembering what you're a part of is the body of Christ. You're just gonna be part of a different body of Christ. But we're all part of the big sea church, and this is an important one. Don't burn bridges that you might need or want to walk back over someday. I think sometimes what we tend to do is we will go scorched earth. We'll burn the ships, we'll walk away. And then it's awkward when you see him in a coffee shop or you run into them at a gas station. But we're still serving Jesus. We're still in this together. And I think that's an important one. Too many people have burnt bridges that they. They need or want to walk back over someday, and they can't. And I'll be honest, I'll speak into this with transparency. There are times where your pastor is not always going to accept it correctly. [00:53:39] Speaker B: Right. [00:53:40] Speaker A: I've had this conversation. Ultimately, you know, when people have left our church plant here, I take it personally. I don't know how to not take it personally. And I'm learning through this, but it's like, it's gotta be me. There's no other reason. We're only two years old. You've been here for this season, you know, and it kind of feels like, well, they just flipped me off and walked away, buddy. You know, I don't know how to. And so I think you've also. The person leaving should give some grace, as we are giving grace to those that are leaving, because we're still, you know, I think we're the only ones that can hear like, you suck. And then we have to be okay with that, you know? [00:54:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:54:15] Speaker A: I'm learning through this. And so we're. We're still people that depend on the Holy Spirit every day. And I think, you know, your pastor now, there comes a point where it turns into gaslighting and manipulation and slander. That. That's unacceptable. But you got to give some grace there. And I pray for you. If you are in that place where you're wondering where you're looking, I think we've given you some really good tools, some guardrails today to kind of hold up against where you're at and say, do these things match up? And especially Gordon's wisdom there. That's. That's good stuff there. Well, Chris, as we wrap up, what final encouragement would you give to our listeners? Searching for a healthy church. Looking for communion community? [00:54:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say don't look for perfection. [00:55:01] Speaker A: That's good. [00:55:02] Speaker B: You know, I think one of the problems that we can have is we have such high expectations that we never find what we're looking for. And I would just say, to remind you that the local church is an expression of the bride of Christ and treat her as such. [00:55:20] Speaker A: Amen. [00:55:21] Speaker B: And so the local church is not perfect perfect, but we are special. And one of my mentors encouraged me time and time again. He said, chris and I mentioned this earlier, but I feel like it's a good close from me is just be routinely faithful. As you're routinely faithful to Jesus, you're walking with him step by step by step. You're surrendered to him. As you seek a new church, you are going to go into it with the right postured heart. But I think if you. If you go in there, like, I'm not good for perfection and I'm surrendered to the Lord. I'm walking with him faithfully, allowing the spirit to guide me. You're going to find the right church community and remember what the church community is. Man, this is so important. The church community is your. Is your spiritual family. [00:56:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:10] Speaker B: And, you know, you don't. We don't. We don't like to. We don't like divorce, and we don't like breakups. But in the church, it's almost like it's an addiction sometimes. Like don't treat your church like, like that. Like, treat her with dignity like we talked about. And so, yeah, yeah, so don't look for perfection. Be routinely faithful and, and, and don't, don't, don't, don't skip around on this. Like take it seriously. It's because it's a big deal, man. You try and find your church, your spiritual family. [00:56:41] Speaker A: It is the local church. Is God's plan a for reaching? [00:56:45] Speaker B: Amen. Yes. [00:56:46] Speaker A: I want to encourage you keep seeking Jesus first. Look for a church where his love is evident, where grace abounds, where you can grow in faith alongside fellow believers who are your family. Following the way of Jesus and trust that God will guide you to the right place at the right time. Remember, church isn't perfect like Chris said, because it's made up of imperfect people. But that's where we find healing and hope and the joy following Jesus together. It's never meant to be alone. Man, what a conversation. Huge thank you to Chris for joining us today for sharing such a rich insight into what healthy, grace filled Jesus centered churches look like. Chris, what is your church's website? Where can they find your teaching? [00:57:27] Speaker B: Yeah, if you go to riverbankchurch.com you can follow there. You can go on YouTube and follow their Riverbank Church on YouTube is a real good place to go. And yeah, so love, love to hear from you. [00:57:40] Speaker A: Chris is on Instagram and I unfollow him every football season. [00:57:44] Speaker B: From here on you do the blocking, right? [00:57:47] Speaker A: It's like unfollow for six months. [00:57:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't care about your canes. [00:57:51] Speaker A: That's funny. Well, if you are searching for a place to belong, maybe you're wrestling with whether it's time to move on. We hope that this episode, episode has given you some clarity, some encouragement, some hope. Here's the truth. No church is perfect. But there are churches that are healthy. Churches where Jesus is the focus, where grace flows freely, where wounds can heal, where disciples are made. And that's what we're after. Not just deconstruction, but reconstruction to following Jesus fully. We're not just walking away. We're walking towards something, something better. Our stories intersecting with God's story to tell a greater story. And if you've been hurt by the church, you're not alone. But don't give up on the bride of Christ because Jesus has it. It's his church. He's doing a great job with it. Thanks for listening to the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. If this episode has helped you in any way, challenged you or made you think. Share it with someone who needs to hear it. And as always, keep recovering, keep growing, keep following the way of Jesus. We'll see you next week. Love you kids. Hey, we want to thank some of the sponsors of the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast Mission University. Founded in 1950, Mission University was founded with the mission of training Christ following leaders to tell the world about Jesus. The mission, it's remained the same through all these years and today they continue to teach, to train and prepare great leaders to make a difference with their life. Mission U educates, inspires and equips. Give Mark Milone a call down there. Tell the Perez that JC from the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast sent you. Find them at Mission. Edu. Go on over and visit barzone design.com professional and affordable logo and graphic design for churches, businesses and more. Thank you Josh for all you do for the rfp. Once again we're giving away a premium Bible here on May the 25th. I partnered with Humble Lamb who is a new Bible distributor. We have a beautiful yellow goat skin, first edition blue ribbons. It's a beautiful Bible. Go on over to our social media, Facebook, Instagram and Twitter and you can see pictures of that. Get signed up for the giveaway on May 25. SAM. [01:00:33] Speaker B: SA.