Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: You are listening to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast, where faith and real life collide in a world full of noise, division and debate. We're here to cut through the clutter with honest conversations, bold truth, and a whole lot of grace. Whether you're questioning, growing, or just trying to make sense of it all, you've got a seat at the table. Let's join JC Groves for today's episode. Let's go.
The Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast starts in three.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: You know what makes women stupid is.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: Colin, Jesus was not a bartender.
You have lost your mind. Long tongue. Heifers have given me a lot more trouble than heifers wearing britches.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: And you know that.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: Say amen right there. 1. Let me tell you something, bozo. They'll be selling Frosties in hell for this. Boy puts on a pair of pink underwear. I sucked my thumb till I was 14 years old. Everybody. Welcome back to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. I'm your host, J.C. groves. I'm grateful that you're here with me today. This episode is going to hit close to home for a lot of us who grew up in the independent Fundamental Baptist movement and other legalistic environments. If you will, be sure to stay tuned here in just a moment. And we want to thank our sponsors of the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. Mission University. Founded in 1950, Mission University was founded with the mission of training Christ following leaders to tell the world about Jesus. The mission, it's remained the same through all these years as they continue to teach and to train and prepare great leaders to make a difference in their life. Mission U educates, inspires, and equips students to serve as effective Christian leaders. Find them today at Mission Edu. Let President Mark Millone know that JC at the RFP sent you that way. Hey, while you're telling people I sent you that way. Go ahead. And if you're in the Tennessee North Georgia area and you're looking for termite and pest solution gpm. Yep, they're a. They're a sponsor now. You can call them at 423517, pest. That's my mom and dad, so go ahead and give them a call there. Hey, so we talked about partnering with Tyndale Publishing to give away a premium new Living translation Bible. That's still happening, but I put the cart in front of the horse and posted the wrong picture. It's okay because we're doing two giveaways. I've partnered with an incredible Bible publisher called Humble Lamb, and we are going to be giving away a yellow new living translation with blue ribbons Brand new, Fresh, Hot off the Press First Edition Bible on May 25th. You want to be sure to get part of this drawing? Go to our Facebook, Instagram and Twitter right now and sign up to be part of that giveaway. Giveaway is going to happen on May 25 and then in the month of June we're going to give away the Tyndale New Living Translation Premium Bible. It's going to be great. Hey, so we opened a Patreon up last week and I just want to thank these folks who have joined up with us to give monthly to help the podcast continue on. Clint Thurman, Bryce Engel, Kenneth Baylos, Adam Bray, John and Kathy Groves, Rhett Martin of the 4Freedom podcast, which you are very familiar with here on the RFP Daniel Wynn, who has been a moderator on our RFP fan page for a long time, Toby Gonzalez, Tyler Breach, and Jonathan Clemens. Jonathan Clemens is who I call the Old Faithful. Every meetup, every conference, every gathering, every Facebook, Instagram, Twitter post, Jonathan Clemens is present and now he's part of the Patreon and I want to thank you for being part of there. Go to patreon.com recovering fundamentalist podcast make sure you look for the new RFP logo. There is an old one on there. We're not sure who created that one or who's getting that money. So be sure to go to the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. Click on the new logo and we will make it happen there.
Today we're talking about the weight of perfectionism, the IFB and legalistic churches, and I read a blog that really sets this episode up well. Her name is Laura Jolie. She says this growing up in fundamentalist environment was like navigating a world of rigid rules and unyielding expectations. I understood from a young age that perfectionism was the standard, the goal. Both elusive and demanding, perfectionism is exceptionally challenging expectation to establish for a child. In my mind, the pressure to adhere to these standards was palpable, as if every misstep was a mark of failure in the eyes of those who believed in these principles and doctrines, I was reminded that I'm saved by grace, a gift beyond comprehension. Yet somehow it felt like lifelong tests to prove my devotion and worth of the gift. I often felt like I was handed an exam before having a chance to be instructed on the materials. This constant pressure to live up to this unattainable standard profoundly impacted my sense of self worth and personal expectation of myself. For a child navigating this type of world, the pressure can be overwhelming. It was for me. The constant fear of making mistakes, of falling short of these lofty expectations, seems to try to stifle creativity, curiosity and the natural process of learning through trial and error. Instead of encouraging a sense of self worth, it can lead to feelings of inadequacy and self doubt. I constantly felt like I was in the wrong for confidently holding my own viewpoints and opinions. Such an environment that demands perfection often creates a mindset that views self worth as contingent on performance. Children may grow up believing that their value as individuals hing on their ability to meet these unrealistic standards. This mindset can persist into adulthood, affecting not only their self esteem, but also their relationships, ambitions and overall well being. They may grow to become adults who are not willing to admit when they have made a mistake or a wrong. Growing up, perfectionism was everywhere. Whether it was how I looked, how I talked, how spiritual I appeared. It was all about performance. And the unspoken message was, if you mess up, God's disappointed in you. That kind of pressure is crushing, especially for a young person trying to make sense of faith. And so, joining us today as we dive into this topic of the weight of perfectionism, this pressure to always perform, to always appear holy, to never mess up, for many of us, it was drilled into us that God's love was tied into how well we behaved, how we looked, or how we conformed. Joining me today is someone who has helped a new generation break free from that cycle, Sarah Vick, the founder of imamlogetics. Did I say it right?
[00:07:13] Speaker B: Perfect.
[00:07:14] Speaker A: Yes. Sarah's passion is to equip moms to defend rock solid faith in, in the shifting sand culture and to give them tools to explain theological concepts to their children in age appropriate ways. And as we head into Mother's Day, I can think of no better guest to have than Sarah. Sarah, welcome finally to the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. I appreciate it.
[00:07:38] Speaker A: Well, I love your story. You wrote in a few months back. In fact, you were one of the first people to send me your story. And I was like, okay, this lady is on fire. Let's get her on the show. And you have this great audience. Will you just share a little bit about who you are, what God is doing in your life, and how you ended up here on the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast?
[00:07:58] Speaker B: Sure.
Well, so my name is Sarah Vic. I am a PK. Grownup PK. My dad is still in ministry. He's 75 years old and still, still going. Never wants to stop.
But I am the Youngest of four, and we grew up in a small town called Shelby, North Carolina. And my dad was the minister of Music and youth, one of the biggest churches in town. So everybody knew us. Everybody knew the Neely girls, and so everybody knew my parents. And from a very young age, it felt like I. Everybody in town was watching me, and everyone expected us to be perfect. And I want to give a lot of credit to my parents because it wasn't so much from them. Sometimes it was, but it wasn't so much from them as I put the pressure on myself that I felt from everybody watching us.
[00:08:59] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:08:59] Speaker B: And when I would get in trouble, if I would do something wrong, you get in trouble, I would feel like I have embarrassed my dad. I've embarrassed the whole church, and I've. And God is embarrassed of me and doesn't love me anymore. And now I have to work my way back up so he'll love me, you know, that kind of stuff. So. But. But I am a wife. We're almost 15 years. It'll be 15 years next month. And I have two kids, boy and a girl.
And a few Years ago, in 2021, my mom passed away. I lost my job, and then my youngest started school. And so I was grieving and lonely, and I had all this time on my hands. And so I was just kind of in a valley, you know? And in those times is when God speaks to us the loudest. Thankfully, that's just part of his grace to us, is when we're in those moments is when he can really speak to us. And so I just started being very hungry for God's word and felt convicted about a lot of time that I had been wasting. And so just got very hungry to read and study more. And then started. My sister said, have you heard of the Recovering Fundamentalist? And I was like, no, it is that. She was like, it's crazy. You got to listen to it.
It's just like that Christian school in our hometown. It's just like. It's so much like what we grew up in, because the church we grew up in wasn't ifb, but there was some of that was there. There. There was a lot that the Christian school was. And then some of that bled into the church where we went.
And she was like, so you have to listen to it. Some of these stories are crazy, and it will sound very familiar. And it did. And so I was. And so I started listening to podcasts just all the time. And eventually I did. I have a job where I work from home, and I.
While I was doing that, I was, like, listening to Recovering Fundamentalist and Apology and Cultish and Ali Beth Stuckey and Cert, like, different sermon series and like studying apologetics. And I just got very passionate about all these things. And then one day I put on Facebook, have you ever felt like God is teaching you so much and you want to share it with somebody, but you don't know who to share it with or where that's going to come from? And a friend of mine said, teach here on Facebook.
And I was like, okay, I could do that. And so I started Facebook page, and then a couple days later started Instagram and asked people to send me questions. And it's just been a really fun time to have moms just like me who were in the same boat who want to disciple their kids and want to know how to defend the faith, to. To get these questions and answer them and questions from my own kids. You know, everyday occurrences that kind of happen out in the culture. And to look at it in a biblical way and say, well, what does God's word say about this? How can we raise children who know God's word and, you know, how to defend the faith?
Because at that same time, my nieces and nephews were starting to go to college, and there were all these differing ideologies around them. And just thinking, you know, when my kids go off to college, I want them to know exactly what they believe and why and be confident to defend it.
So that's where that came from. And God has been so faithful. And it's grown. It's been almost a year, and it's. It's grown a lot. And then, you know, I'm working on writing a book now, so excited.
[00:12:50] Speaker A: That's good. You know, we had a youth pastor here that was asking, how do I get experience? And, you know, one of the things that I tell young pastors and people that are wanting to go into ministry, they're like, how do I get. How do I get started? You know, back when we were kids, we didn't have social media. We didn't have this thing called YouTube and TikTok and Instagram. I went to the nursing home and preached, or we'd go to the prison and preach on Paul and Silas. Great audience, you know, and I tell all of them now, you've got an incredible platform that you can journal. You can see your growth. You can also help people in ways. And so social media is such a great tool that, you know, a lot of people, like, get off social media, but it's such a good tool to be able to help.
[00:13:30] Speaker B: How.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: Have you seen your form of apologetics to moms, specifically in the last year? How do you feel like it has been accepted? Do you. Do you see stories of people that are learning and growing? And what are some stories from starting doing that?
[00:13:46] Speaker B: Yeah, one of the. One of the first questions was from my son. They had watched Prince of Egypt at church, and he came home and he said, was the plague of the firstborn good or bad? And I'm like, what do you mean? He said, everything God does is good, but it's bad when babies die. So is it good or bad? And I was like, that's a good question. And I told our children's minister, I'm like, why did you let them watch that movie? I don't know what to say.
But then. But then I was like, okay, let's look at it. And so I just went to the Bible, and in my. In my videos or in things that I post, I try to never say I think or I believe or my dad said or my pastor said. I try to always go to God's word because that's our ultimate standard for truth. So let's go here and see what God's word says. And so we just. And my son, and I'm sure lots of other people's kids, he's 13 now, but he is still super curious about everything.
And so.
So it's like, okay, so, yes, what God does is good. Sometimes it's hard for us to understand it.
That was a result of rebellion and disobedience from the Egyptian people. And he was using it to save his people. And he was also using it to point to the sacrifice of Jesus. And so in that, it was a good thing, even though it is sad when babies die. Of course it is. But sometimes what God does is a consequence and is disciplined. And those are hard things, and those are sad, but God can still use them for our good, for his glory. Yeah, that's. That's where I want to.
[00:15:26] Speaker A: There's the redemption through it all. You know, it's. It's crazy we're talking about this because I'm. I'm preaching through the Book of Ruth right now, and we're coming up on Ruth, too. And we've gotten to that point where God is providential, you know, and there's the time where there's trials, but it's not necessarily a consequence. Daniel in the lion's den. Shadrach, Meshach and Bendigo in the fire Job. Joseph, those Weren't consequences. Those were trials that got allowed. And, you know, I. I love being able to teach our children. As a youth pastor for 20 years, one of the things that drove me insane was when parents would drop their kids off and say, here, turn my kid into Noah. And I'm like, hold up. That's not our job. We are to. I used to say, we're here to partner with the parents. And then I became a parent, and I realized that there's not really a lot of partnering. I've got an hour a week with these teenagers we're here to support. But the problem is, and what you're finding with your social media platform is that a lot of parents, they weren't taught. They don't.
And what we're doing is we're just depending on the church, on the pastor, on the youth pastor to help my kid own their faith when we don't really own our faith. And I believe a reason for a lot of that is because many of us either grew up in this culture where owning our faith looked like how we performed for our faith instead of understanding that it was a relationship of growing every day to become more like Jesus. I know in my life, you know, I. I ran into a guy the other day that was like, groves, you preaching jeans now? And I'm like, yeah, dude. I don't. I don't even think about what I wear when I go to church anymore.
[00:17:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:01] Speaker A: Because I was the kid that. From as far back as I could remember, I had a different suit. And I thought if I didn't get a new tie for Bible conference and a new suit for a revival service, that I was somehow less spiritual than everybody else. And, you know, honestly, I was very pious in that, that I was like, well, look at my new suit. You know, I'm. I'm in the choir. You know, this. This level of living for acceptance, not just from God, but for. For everybody. And I've said on this episode, on this podcast so many times, the freedom that comes when you learn to live from acceptance rather than for acceptance is life changing. I would love to hear a little bit about your story. Growing up, just this. This. This level of perfectionism that seemed to have to be there. How did that play a role in your life?
[00:17:51] Speaker B: Yeah, it really felt like. And I've talked to him. I have. I'm the youngest, so my three older sisters, we've talked about this a lot. Just kind of working through some things that we had to unlearn, you know, and thinking everybody is looking at Us, we're going to let everybody down. We better do everything right, or dad. Mom and dad will be so embarrassed, and it'll be all our fault, and then God is going to hate us forever or something.
And so there was one time I.
We were. We were in church, and I said something rude about a church member, and she overheard it, and she went to my dad and told him, and dad was like, here's what happened. You need to go apologize. And I was supposed to sing in church that Sunday. And I was like, daddy, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean it. I was just. I was just talking, and I didn't mean it. And I'm. I'm so sorry. I shouldn't have said it. And then he was like, well, it's okay. I know. You just. She's mad. You need to go apologize. And so I went to her, and I was like, I owe your apology. And she goes, yes, you do.
Like. And I was like a teenager, and she was a grown one, and I was weeping, and I came to her just crying. I was like, I'm so sorry. I knew. Yes, you do. I was like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I shouldn't have said that. I apologize. And she was like, it's all right. Okay? And I was like, yes, ma'am. And then I got up to try to sing in church, and I just cried the whole time.
[00:19:25] Speaker A: Working on her today? Yeah.
[00:19:26] Speaker B: Yeah. And then, you know. But my dad was like, it's. I don't want you to feel like you have to do everything perfectly, but you have to be careful about what you say and who you say it around.
And then there was, you know, in. In high school, my sisters, you know, everybody knew them, and everybody was watching them. And then I felt that same thing, too.
And then what we. You know, the music we listened to and what we wore and what we said and where we went and, you know, and people would call. Like, in high school, people would call me, like, the church girl or the preacher's girl or, you know, that kind of stuff. And if I would do. Say, be like, I didn't think the preacher's daughter did stuff like that. And I'm like, what do you mean? And. And it was like, say a cuss word. Like, I didn't, like, do anything crazy. I didn't, like, drink or smoke or anything. I never knew that because everybody was watching me, so I didn't do that.
But. Yeah, but just that feeling of everybody's Watching everybody in our small town knows us. And you better not mess up.
[00:20:33] Speaker A: That's what I told my kids. I was like you, congratulations. Whether you like it or not, your PKs and the thing that we have tried to do from the very beginning is not shelter them or protect them, but just help them live as normal as possible. And honestly, we haven't really focused too much on them being PKs. I think the freedom that I have found from that performance based faith is one of the standards that I have. And you could talk to our church folk here and my kids is to be the same personally, publicly and privately. If you're the same in the pulpit as you are at the Mexican restaurant or on the ball field, you don't have to worry about this performance because you're just the same. And people know I'm the same sitting behind this mic as I will be on that stage or at the ball field. But I tell my kids, hey, I know every cop in this town. I know every person in this town. And unfortunately, everybody knows you. Now there is this and this is a whole different episode that we could get into. And I don't want to get on a rabbit trail, but preachers, kids, there's. Without even trying, there is that pressure to perform. And I think one of the things that we have done as parents, my wife and I, Kim, is we've really encouraged them to own their faith for it not to be mom and dad's faith. Don't let it be your faith because you're the preacher's kid. In fact, I don't care what anybody thinks about you as my kid. I love you, I know who you are. But I want you to know that, you know, and I've on purposely now I have one that's getting ready to drive. We have, you know, mine's 15 to 7, I think. I honestly don't remember how old they are. There's six of them.
We've on purposely not said things like, you're a representation of us. You're not just, you know, my dad, I love him, but he drove this into my head. You don't just represent God, you represent me. And that's the church and that's your grandfather. And I'm like, there was this weight and I was like, yeah, I better not get. You know, we'd go down to the Plow Boy mansion. That was our hangout. It was so stupid. And it was a country band and my buddy Nathan Pharaoh and Tracy Trivet and all these guys would play at it and people would Walk up and be like your dad a pastor. What are you doing? Plowboy Mansion. I was like, don't tell anybody, you know, pressure, because I was hurting the name of God and hurting the name of my pastor and my papa and, and the church. And so we have tried and I hope we're doing a good job with this. Now when he starts driving, if he runs red lights and flips people off, it's his mom's. I'm like, okay, you know, but we're trying to, like, I think one of the things to do is to get them to own their faith. And yeah, I don't know if this is the right way to do this, to not put that performance, performance based on them. I don't feel like my kids, and I may be wrong, maybe I need to bring them on and ask them this question. But I don't feel like they're, they feel that pressure to perform like we did growing up in the church there. Because honestly, performance, when it becomes the focus, relationship with Jesus becomes secondary. Yeah, yeah, there was church attendance, soul winning, dress standards, good things. But often it weaponizes a checklist. Sorry, what were you going to say?
[00:23:52] Speaker B: No, it's fine. There was one time at our church and evangelist, I think we were having a revival. An evangelist came and I'm standing out in the lobby and he goes, young lady, do you know the Lord? Do you have a personal relationship with the Lord? And before I could say anything, one of the deacons, he goes, oh, yeah, she does. She does, absolutely. And then I thought, like, what if I didn't? But because I'm the pastor's child, they just assume, and they just assume that I, some people assume that I was perfect and that we did everything, everything right, you know, and so I don't, I don't like that, that expectation of, well, because they're pastors kids, they're automatically saved and they automatically are good in their faith and they don't struggle, you know, I don't, I don't like that. I want, you know, for kids to have the freedom to struggle and say, I'm, I'm not perfect. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know if I believe what this says in the Bible. And I'm struggling with the, and to have the freedom to say that and not just at home, but to say it around church people. Because that's the other thing. Like you're, when you're the pastor's kid, your best friends are all at church and so you want to be able to be yourself, you know, and not feel like you have to pretend.
So I, I think that's a good thing, just to let kids know. Like, it's, it's okay to have questions. It's okay if you don't know where you are in your faith or if you believe this. And then I had a college professor who said, you've got to find your own Jesus. You can't lean on mom and Daddy's Jesus. You got to find your own Jesus. And so I remember that when I was in college, like figuring that out and, and who I was and what I believed and what God was calling me to, apart from being Lawton Neely's daughter, you know.
[00:25:37] Speaker A: Yeah. I think my son, my oldest son really saw that because as a college pastor, before we planted Hope Church two years ago, I was a college pastor. And one of the things that I saw is we had a bunch of youth group kids that would show up at youth groups. They'd play fun games, they would have good times. But when they graduated, it's almost like they graduated from their faith. They showed up at college ministry like middle schoolers. And I'm like, hold up. This is when you got to put what you've supposed to be learning to the test. Because mom and daddy ain't round. Youth pastor ain't around. Your pastor's not around you. Rubber's meeting the road here. And I really think my kids started seeing that. Hey, you know, it's not up to my youth pastor. We got a great youth pastor here. JB is awesome, but it's not his job to turn my kids into Noah. It's not even our parents. My job is to guide them, but ultimately they got to own their faith. And I think, man, what you just said is something that resonates so deeply with me because I was that kid.
Like, if you, if you could look at a picture of a perfectionist performance based faith, that was me. I mean, I was, I grew up in the church. I sang in the quartet. I played Jesus in the Chattanooga Passion Play. My initials are J.C. like, you couldn't get more Christian than what it was. Yeah, I didn't look like this playing Jesus. It was not a fat ball Jesus. I had a big old head full of hair.
May 21, at 21 years old, sitting in my Jeep at a dairy farm in Davis, North Carolina. I said, it's all been this show. Like, it's just been this performance based salvation. And it was like I pulled out this list that was just tattered and torn that I just kept saying, but here's my accomplishments. Look at what I've done.
[00:27:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:19] Speaker A: Sitting in that Jeep that day, I just let go of the steering wheel and say, God, I'm following you. And it wasn't like an image of Jesus come on the windshield. And the Holy Spirit came through the air vents. But something changed, and I'll never forget what happened. I drove home that night. I was in Yadkinville, North Carolina.
[00:27:35] Speaker B: My sister lives right outside of there.
[00:27:37] Speaker A: No way. So I was living there. And I drove home to Chattanooga. I walked into church. I drove all night. Took me about 10, 11 hours. Walked into church that morning, pair of jeans, T shirt, flip flops. I walked up to Aaron Hampton, who was our associate pastor. He was the first person to meet me at the door. And I said, aaron, I gotta get baptized this morning. I said yes to Jesus last night. And Aaron didn't say, no, you're saved or no, you've sung here your whole life or you've worn suits. This is what Aaron said. It's about time. I've been praying for it. I was like, hold up. You mean I wasn't fooling you? You mean that? This whole performance game, I thought I was doing a really good job with. And I'll never forget that. Here's what to me, performance based faith. Performance based faith did Christianity became more about doing for God. Instead of being with God or celebrating.
[00:28:29] Speaker B: What he's done for us, we're looking at what we can give him instead of what Jesus did for us.
[00:28:35] Speaker A: You know, it's selfish.
[00:28:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:38] Speaker A: A performance based system often relies on fear. Fear of man, fear of being out of God's will. How many times do we hear that, you know, fear of being rejected by God or the church. This fear it creates for many people, anxiety, spiritual burnout. Hey, listen, when you hit burnout, you stop doing what's right and you start doing what's easy. And that's when the affair happens. That's when you get busted. That's when you start stealing. That's from the church. You see what I'm saying? It leads to a distorted view of God as a task master rather than a loving father. And we're walking through a book right now with some guys called Sonship, talking about our place in God. And that's really along the lines of what you're doing. You're helping moms understand their place in God and their responsibility to train their kids. And I, I think talk about that tension of being a parent, but also leaning into Our place as sons and daughters with God and relaying that to our sons and daughters.
[00:29:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I was getting ready to teach a Sunday school class, and I was.
[00:29:43] Speaker A: What?
[00:29:44] Speaker B: There was, like, a video to watch. And I'm watching a little video, and it was a guy said, you know, like, Joey from Such and such, North Carolina, age 5, sent us this question, and he answered it, and he said, send us your question. Or if you have any questions, you can ask your Sunday school teacher, your preacher, or maybe even your parent. And it made me so mad, I was like, wait a minute, that's backwards. I was like, the parents supposed to be first. And like you said, like, I think that the church is there as a support, but the parents are to be the number one disciples. And then as moms, we just typically spend the most time with our children. And so which is, you know, as it should be, I think. But anyway, that's another story. But I was looking, just kind of looking around me at, like, women in my church or single moms or people who didn't grow up in church or maybe didn't get to go to Christian college or seminary or, like, you know, we had a dad as a pastor, and my mom was a brilliant Bible teacher, so we could ask just about any question we wanted. But I know not everybody has that. And so that's what I wanted to do. And not that I know everything, because I certainly don't. I only went to seminary for a year, and then I got married and started having babies.
[00:31:02] Speaker A: More seminary than most IFB pastors. So good on you.
[00:31:06] Speaker B: So I. But just looking around and saying, you know, we know that it's our job to disciple our children. We want to do that, but maybe don't feel confident in answering those questions.
And so how do we equip each other to do that? And how do we let our children know that the Bible is the ultimate standard of truth? And so the kind of apologetics that I like is not so much the evidentiary kind, which I do some of that, too. I talked with a high school class yesterday about intelligent design and creationism and all that kind of stuff. We. They're doing a project, so I talked with them about that. But.
But I think presuppositional apologetics is more biblical because it comes from Romans 1:18, where it says that all men are without excuse. God has made himself plain throughout all of creation, and that's why all men are without excuse. But we suppress the truth of God and unrighteousness.
And so it's saying, you Know God. God's law is written on your heart, but you suppress. It's like pushing down a beach ball under the water, you know, you suppress that truth and, you know, creation just screams the glory of God, you know, and it. It takes that change in your heart, the Holy Spirit, to kind of remove those scales and open your eyes to that. And so the thing that I try to do, you know, and a lot of people think of apologetics as you need to know, like, the history of archeology and cosmology, and you need to be able to read Greek and Hebrew and, you know, all of those things, which I don't do any of those. I don't do any of those things.
So. But for our children, and I'm also a former kindergarten teacher, so I kind of can use that in my. My husband was really encouraging. He was like, whatever you do, you need to do something with kids, because you're really good with kids. I don't think you know that you're really good with kids. Like, most people aren't like you are. And so just taking these questions that our kids ask, like, how old is God?
You know, why doesn't everyone believe in God? What happens to people who died in the Old Testament? Why do people get divorced? Why do babies die? Those. Those kind of things that kids ask that are big, hard questions to deal with, and things that adults deal with, you know, for years and years.
So just looking at those things and then also letting our kids know, like, why can I trust the Bible?
Now, there's. Obviously, there's the manuscript evidence, which is amazing, which is great, and there's the archeological evidence, but also because a lot of people that you talk to would be like, oh, well, it was just written by a bunch of men thousands of years ago. Okay, well, you trust books written by men, too, so, yeah, exactly. What's the issue? Like, your biology book was written by man, so what's the deal with that? But the only way that our finite. And I didn't come up with this, I learned this from another apologist. The only way that our finite minds can understand anything infinite is if it's revealed to us from an infinite source. So we do not have all the answers, but God does. And that's why we can trust him. And so. And I don't just say trust the Bible because God wrote it. It's not just that. It's that he is an infallible being. And so that's why we know his word is infallible. And, you know, the Bible says That all the treasures of wi for wisdom and godliness are hidden in Christ Jesus and that the big. The. What is it? Oh, it just left my head. The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God. Did I say that right? Fear of God's beginning of wisdom. That's it.
Yeah. So when we, we start with God, we start with the Bible as our ultimate source of truth. Because you have to have that standard. If your standard is what you feel or what you think, then you can be swayed. You know, if you're, if your daughter gets cancer and it's like maybe God isn't good anymore. So we go back to what, what's true, what do I know to be true? God is. God is love. God's word is true. God is holy. And I can trust that. And then everything kind of flows out from that. And so that's kind of the apologetics that I do.
[00:35:20] Speaker A: I love that our kids are also picking it up on our faith with how we live it out. You know, one of the things that we talked about this week with my wife and, and she, we talked about habits. We're. We're walking through right now with the group on Sunday nights. It's John Mark Comers practicing the Presence, practicing the way. That's it. And I read a book years ago from a, a monk called Brother Lawrence called Practicing the Presence of God. And one of the things that we do in this is, it's all about the spiritual formations of solitude, of prayer, of time. And my wife, you know, we were talking and she said, you know, I, I want to teach our kids these spiritual disciplines, but not necessarily in lecture form.
[00:35:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:59] Speaker A: But in lifestyle. And you don't. My wife is up every morning hurt. The only time it's quiet in our house is either late at night when I'm working, or early in the morning when she gets up and works. And so I get my best work done like 10:30pm to 3:30am that's when everybody's in bed. I love it. Yeah, My wife, she's getting up when I'm going to bed kind of thing. And she's up, you know, when the Son comes up reading her Bible. And, you know, we're the difference. She's good morning, Lord, and I'm good Lord. It's morning. You know, that's just how we are there.
[00:36:24] Speaker B: That's me. My husband is the morning person.
[00:36:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I hate it. I am not a morning person at all. Like, my, if morning could start at like 10am I'd be like, this is great. But My wife is up every morning in her spot with her coffee, reading her Bible. And our daughters, I have watched this over the years. All of our kids, and it's fun. Even our girls, before they could read, they're sitting at the table with their Bibles open and their, they're like looking and when she'll turn a page, they'll turn a page. And you know, that is a learned thing in a way. If we were in a performance based faith, it would be, y'all better be up at 5am sitting at this table reading your Bible for this amount of time. But what they're seeing is because it's, it's a, it's taught, not demanded, they're picking up on that. And I think, you know, we have this incredible opportunity to, to teach the word of God just in how we live our life with our, our kids because what a great church. You know, these guys, and this is something we'll get on a different topic with someday. But these pastors and these ministry leaders that have thriving ministries, but their home life and their kids and their ministry at home is failing. Yeah, you can be very successful and fell at home and you're, you're a failure. That's. Yeah, that's all there is to it there. So I think leaning into this identity of performance, when it becomes rooted in what you do, not in who you are in Christ. And I know for me, being a parent and a pastor, there comes this, it's why we call this the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast, because I think we're something that we're always going to be fighting against because there's this tendency to lean into. As a pastor, I'm only as good as my last sermon or that altar call or that outward appearance or how my kids portrayed if they do right. And what that causes is deep insecurity and people pleasing. And I think many leaders, many parents, unintentionally or tensionally, they build systems that reward performance and punish vulnerability. You know, I think as parents, man, that's one of the things we want to do is lean into that vulnerability of saying, I don't know, it's okay to say I don't know. My gosh, the thought of saying I don't know growing up, that would have terrified me. I'd have made up some kind of plan to sound like I'm ISO, I'm pontificating on isoterical theory is going to have what I'm talking about. But now I just want to say I don't know, but I'll Figure it out, and we'll have a conversation around that.
[00:38:53] Speaker B: Yeah. My son asked me one day. He was like, mom, what are. What are tarot Terrace Car. And I said, tarot cards. Yeah. What. What are those? And I was like, that's bad. We don't mess with that. We don't. We don't have to have anything to do with it. And he goes, why not? And I'm like, because it's bad. And he's like, but why?
[00:39:14] Speaker A: It said no.
[00:39:16] Speaker B: And I was like, let me find out and I'll let you know. And so that's what I did. I went to the Bible and I looked through some verses and I studied it, and then I came back to him and I was like, here's why we don't mess with it. Here's what's. God's words.
[00:39:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:28] Speaker B: So, you know, it's okay to do that.
[00:39:30] Speaker A: My little perfectionism, IFB brain went off the other day. We got a guy that's here in our church, very, very dedicated, great man, love Jesus. And he plays dnd. I don't know if you know what that is. Dungeons and Dragons.
[00:39:44] Speaker B: Oh, dungeon. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:39:45] Speaker A: Okay, listen. I grew up thinking that was, like, right next to demonic. I mean, like, play with that. And he started getting. He's like, it's just like Monopoly. He's like, I just dress up. And, you know, I think that it's like. It's like gluttony. Gluttony is not just eating. Gluttony is an inordinate desire for food. We can turn anything into gluttony, if you will. It's something that takes the place of God. For many of us, performance is our gluttony. We are performing for. As parents, we want perfect children in the world's eyes. As pastors, we want this perfect church. As parents, we want. You know, And I think what tends to happen is we lose this ideology that God knows us ultimately, and we don't have to fall into this trap of being perfect. Everybody around us, it's okay to say, I don't know. And, yeah, that was a hard thing to swallow because, man, my son is smarter than me on some things. I'm like, are you sure about that?
[00:40:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:40:39] Speaker A: I think. I think leaders and parents, we can. We feel like we can't be human without risking our influence or our position.
You know, I think that's just thinking of my parents. I love them. They're great. But thinking about their life and where they came from, I think there was this level of influence and position. They had to show this superiority. And that stems from this root of performance, basically.
[00:41:04] Speaker B: Yeah. I think my dad. My dad is one of eight, and like I told you before, he grew up in Spartanburg. Everybody knew the Neely family, Everybody knew my grandparents, and so I think he felt that too. Now, my grandfather wasn't in ministry. They taught a Sunday school class, but he was well known and respected in town as a businessman, and everybody knew the family. And so I think my dad felt that a little bit that he had to be perfect. And so that kind of came down to us especially being in ministry. But it's just one of those cycles that you kind of learn to break and you realize that you don't have to perform, you don't have to be perfect.
And so I'm thankful for my parents really helping us as we grew up, helping us realize what grace is and what mercy is. And just a love of God that doesn't depend on who we are and what we do, but that he loves you as you are now. He doesn't want to leave you as you are. He wants to change you, of course, and make, you know, conform you to the likeness of his son. But God's love is not dependent on how many times you go to church and what your clothes look like and what, how many verses you memorize and Bible drill or whatever, you know, Awana.
[00:42:23] Speaker A: Let'S lean into that grace a little bit there. And what grace actually looks like. I believe that grace, it sets us free from performing to earning God's love and frees us to obey out of love. We get to give, we get to go to church, we get to parent, we get to learn and grow. I don't think that grace lowers the bar. It changes the motive.
[00:42:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:42:47] Speaker A: It doesn't lower a bar. It changes the motive.
[00:42:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, you know, I think about the verse. It says, should we continue in sin so that grace may increase? By no means. I think my Bible version says, by no means, but.
[00:43:02] Speaker A: So I'm just kidding.
[00:43:04] Speaker B: And I can't remember. There's one that says by no means, and there's one that says certainly not. So that's what my best friend and I always say, by no means. Certainly not.
[00:43:11] Speaker A: Mine said, yeah, that's the nlt.
[00:43:15] Speaker B: Yeah. So like you, it's not based on your performance.
And somebody asked me, I. I don't so much anymore. But when I first got started out with immologetics, I was having way too many online debates with atheists.
Because if you and I've told people this before. If you really want, like, a crash course in defending your faith, put something on Instagram that says, Jesus is Lord and they will come. Just post it and they will come. And they have good questions. And, you know, I really wanted to give a good answer, but I got to the point where I was spending all my time doing this, having little online debates, and I had to cut that loose. But anyway, so somebody said to me, why do religious people just torture themselves? Like, we only have this one life. Why do you spend all your time just torturing yourself and doing all of these things? If all we have is this one life, why don't you just enjoy it? And I'm like, we don't do those things because we have to. We don't. We're not forced to love God or go to church or read it. We're not. For we get to do those things, and we do them out of a love for God, not because we have to. And I'm like. And it's not. It's not like, torture to me. I love it. I hunger for it now. Like, it wasn't always that way. But where I am now in my faith, I hunger for God's word, and I love it and I treasure it so much, and I'm so thankful for it.
And so we, you know, we don't have to perform, we don't have to be perfect.
And also, God doesn't need. I used to think God needed me. God really needed me on his team. And if I didn't go out and, you know, be on fire for Jesus, that it was just going to be real bad for everybody. And so, you know, I really thought that it was my job to save my friends and I better be perfect, because if they go to hell, it's all my fault. But later on when I realized, like, salvation is a work of the Holy Spirit, not of me. And that gave me a lot of freedom, too. And that God is always at work in saving his children, and he is faithful. And he who began a good work, and you will be faithful, faithful to complete it. And so we can go out and do those things.
And God wants to use us, but he doesn't have to. And so it is a great gift to me that I. That I am used in the body of Christ, that He doesn't need me, but that he wants to use me. I think that's a. That's a great honor. So I'm thankful that. And there was. We were at a youth conference, and I remember There was a guy screaming and I was a. I went on all the youth trips from when I was a baby, you know, because that's, that's what we did. I went to. I heard your Word of Life. If I said I went to Word of Life when I was like five with the youth group. Okay, yeah, we used to go there. Yeah. But yeah, so there was this preacher yelling at a youth camp. And I was a, I was maybe 8 or 9. And he's going, the blood is like, he's sweating and scraping. The blood is on your hands. And if you're. How hot as hell and if your friends go to hell and you know this because you weren't a good enough witness. And I was terrified. I was like, okay, this is on me now, you know? And so that, that just puts a weight on a child they were never meant to bear. And I am so thankful for the grace of God and for the power of the Holy Spirit that is at work in salvation.
[00:46:52] Speaker A: I love something you said a minute ago, where spiritual disciplines become a response to love, not a recovery requirement for acceptance. That is so good. And I think somebody needs to hear this right now. On this episode, on, on your very best day, God does not love you anymore. And on your very worst day, he doesn't love you any less. God loves you. He knows who you are. He created you and he. He loves you. And I think when we, when we respond to his love, these things become a response to the love that he has shown us. Not a requirement for that acceptance, not a requirement to earn the favor and the love of God. And there may be some signs, you know, we, you've heard this episode and we're kind of wrapping this up and I want to give you like some signs that you may be trapped in performance based faith. As a parent, as a pastor, as an attender. You feel guilty when you miss a devotion or a church service. There's that, that tinge of guilt there because you're missed a performance. You're constantly comparing yourself to other Christians, to other parents, to other pastors, to other churches. You fear that God is disappointed in you if you're not. What she just said on fire, it's on your hands. You struggle to rest because rest feels lazy or unspiritual. I think, I think those are just some signs there. I would love for you to give us some practical ways that parents, dads, Christians, believers, followers of the way can break free or start breaking free from this danger that is perfectionism.
[00:48:38] Speaker B: Yeah. I think is to realize how loved you are in Christ.
And that Jesus said that his yoke is easy and his burden is light. So if you are feeling that your Christian walk is this heavy, terrible burden, I think that is, that's not from God. That's probably Satan throwing some guilt and shame on you.
So, and then also Jesus said it's not burdensome to do the will of God. And so we want to kind of lean into knowing the freedom that we have in Christ, the love that he loves us with as a perfect love. And then I had a. My mentor, she told I was going through a really hard time and I was just like crying out to God all the time. And she said, read the Psalms. And she was like, you have David, who's a man after God's own heart, who in one song he's like, praise God, bless God. You know, his praise will be on my lips continually. And another one is like, you've forgotten me. Where are you? And how long will you forgive me? You know, you have those two things.
But David was not like you said. He was not less loved by God. And so if you're struggling through that, read the Psalms and, and hear the cry of his heart and see that you can cry out to God and you can say, God, I don't want to carry this burden anymore. It's not mine to carry. You know, once you understand that, then really, I mean, I just can't say it enough. Get deep into God's Word and fall in love with his Word because that will change your life. Because you know, the word of God is living and active. And so it, it will do a working. The Holy Spirit will do a work in you through that.
[00:50:29] Speaker A: I think I would add to that. Recognize where the voices that you're listening to are coming from. Are they rooted in scripture or who is speaking into your life? I heard this said the other day. Don't seek advice from somebody that you wouldn't take counsel from. You know, I think, you know, if you're listening to people that are performance based, recognize where the voices you're listening to. Start speaking truth over yourself, over your kids. Replace I have to be perfect with God's grace is sufficient. Now that doesn't give you a live however I want card. Well, God's grace is sufficient so I can do whatever I want.
Start speaking that truth that we, we don't have to be perfect, but God's grace is sufficient. And I think this is a big one is surround yourself with community that values vulnerability and grace over image and performance and you know, we, we have for so many. Community is kind of the bad word in a lot of legalistic circles, because in community, you're vulnerable. You're real, you're honest. You. You know, pastors, we're the worst ones with this because we don't want to let anybody in our inner circle, you know, but, but there's this, there's a freedom that comes with vulnerability, with saying, I don't know, with, with, with taking off the mask, if you will. That used to work before COVID Now everybody had to wear masks. We're like, do we put them on? What do we do? But I think surrounding yourself with community life is not meant to be lived alone. It is best in the context of community. Moms get with other moms and realize you're not doing that bad of a job. Like, you're, you're raising little hellions who desperately need Jesus and you're pointing them to be more like him. And there's other moms that are struggling. Dads get with other dads. You know, your boys don't need you to be cool. Your daughters don't need you to be this superhero. They just need dad. With all the hurts, the habits, the hangups, you're still loving Jesus through it. And I think that is so important. You know, I want to just, just close by saying God already knows you fully and he loves you completely. You don't have to earn what's already been given to you. You're not loved for your performance perfectionism. You're loved because you're his kid. And that is enough. Sarah, what would you say as you're. As we're wrapping up? I'd love to give you the last word here. It's been a great conversation. I feel like I've dominated a little bit of the conversation. So passionate about performance based faith and this idea and. But also with parenting. As a dad of six, I see where this slips into our thinking and our parenting, and it's such an important thing. And I would love for people to stay connected to you, how they can find help and continue on from this podcast. So close out. Give us whatever's on your mind and where we can find your stuff.
[00:53:17] Speaker B: Okay, so I'll just close my, My encouragement that I always tell parents is that you don't have to be on staff at a church or go to a foreign country to be a missionary. You are a missionary in your home. Your children are your first missionary field. And so start your ministry right there, right where God has placed you with these Little mission field, these little children that he's put in your home.
[00:53:43] Speaker A: Little mission fields. I love that.
[00:53:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, so. Because I used to think you have to be on staff to be in ministry, but, you know, it's, it's right there where you are, right where God has placed you with the people he's put in front of you. And then if you want to follow me, you can follow on Instagram and Facebook, a momlogetics. And yeah, there will be a website soon. It's coming soon. It's in the works. And then working on writing a book, too. So that's, that's also going to be in the works.
And yeah, just.
And like I said before, just get deep into God's word and know it well. If you want to be a biblical woman, be in your Bible. You don't have to bake sourdough and make your own curtains. Just like, get in the Bible and know God's word and, you know, you don't have to be a tradwife. Get in there, get into God's word and know it and then speak it to your children. And just like your wife doing her Bible study in the morning, just had those natural rhythms of life and your children will pick up on that and see it. And whenever bad things happen in life with you, your kids, whatever, let them see that. Prayer is your first, your first reaction, not to worry, oh, no, what am I going to do? What, you know, what's going to happen, but that we say, okay, we're going to go pray. Because that's what my mom would do. She'd like, all right, let's go pray about it. So let's pray about it. Let's, let's go figure this out. But, but just to rest in the love of God and who he has made you to be and that like you said, he loves you as you are and he made you exactly as you are. And so I think as long as we are seeking after God, if we're seeking after him and staying in his word, that we can rest in his love for us and, and be thankful that we don't have to be perfect and we don't have to perform.
[00:55:48] Speaker A: Amen. When you get that book written, we'll have to have you back on.
Let's do it.
[00:55:53] Speaker B: Maybe one day.
[00:55:55] Speaker A: Maybe one day.
[00:55:56] Speaker B: One day.
[00:55:57] Speaker A: Well, thank you, Sarah, for being here with us. Happy Mother's Day to you and to all the moms. Happy Mother's Day. Kathy Groves, my wife Kim, my sister Laura, sister in law, Tiffany. Happy Mother's Day. To my nanny, to my grandma, to all of you moms out there, you're awesome. We literally couldn't do it without you. So go and check out all of her social media platforms there. And to everyone listening, thank you for joining me for this conversation. If you're carrying the weight of perfectionism, know this. You're not alone. And there's freedom on the other side. We'll see you next time right here on the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast. Love you kids.
[00:58:52] Speaker B: Sat.
